What lawyer, in their right mind, would blatantly lie to a judge? Is this MAGA believing their own mythology? Do think the ruling is not going to be enforced? I'm confused.
There is an ethics component to the bar exam. It can be pretty laughable. When I took it back in the 80s, all questions were essay types EXCEPT the ethics. Those were multiple choice. And the thing was, on a couple of them I knew the answer cold and it was.not.a.choice. We were reduced to guessing what the writer of the exam must have thought the answer was.
In fact, that year a large number (over half I think) failed the ethics section, and thus the whole exam. They had to redo the whole ethics section for those folks. I turned out to be a good guesser, and passed. But the whole multiple choice format eliminated any ability to evaluate the subtlety of many ethical questions.
I think we need drug testing and psychological testing before appointment to ALL federal positions. Obviously the felon rapist and musk are heavily involved with drug as well as being sociopathic. These nut jobs should be no where near OUR government, OUR economy or OUR retirement savings.
It's amazing how many otherwise bright people forget that everything and everyone Trump touches turns to shit. And then their brains seem to turn to mush.
let me answer a question with a question. What attorney would be the defense attorney for trump? And there you have it the same caliber of attorney at one is the same at the other. Once John McCain made a quip about being at the bottom of his class at the Naval Academy in the form of someone had to do it. I think these attorneys are the ones that squeak by in law school and the bar exams. The bottom feeders (or the 3% in government we could easily get rid of with no cost to expertise or efficiency.
Perhaps anyone who was convicted in a case where Guiliani (or any other Trump-affiliated lawyer) was prosecutor should request their case be reviewed based on the now-obvious lack of legal ethics of the government's representative.
It used to be quite difficult to get a job at DOJ as a lawyer. It was a coveted position and you had to be highly qualified. I suspect that DOJ lawyers who are still there for the most part would leave if there were other legal jobs to be had, but there aren’t, particularly on a lateral level. So, they’re sticking it out and risking their legal careers by pissing off judges.
Given how long the right wing extremists have been working at their coup, I find myself wondering about assumptions like this. Was the difficulty due to the rigorous standards needed or was the difficulty due to underlying agendas of embedded extremists?
Given that pretty much any accusation that has come out of the right's mouth in recent years is tantamount to a confession on their part, the whole "deep state / swamp" baloney seems less like rants designed to increase paranoia among ill-informed than it does a revelation as to what they've been up to for decades.
I find the Convicted Felon's excuse of a "national emergency" of border crossings and fentanyl trafficking amusing, in light of the fact that border crossings are at a 25-year low and fentanyl seizures and rates of OD'ing are also at an all-time low.
Not to mention that the Convicted Felon was the one that scuttled a bipartisan agreement to improve the security at the border. "Emergency"....riiiiiight.
Despite loving "nation-wide" injunctions when MAGA judges - yes, you, Matthew Kacsmaryk and Reed O'Connor - issue nation-wide injunctions, tRump and his DOJ will demand an "emergency" ruling from SCOTUS on all these district-court TROs and injunctions that have nation-wide effects, as they've done in one such case already. We may be quite close to the Supremes either green-lighting the Doge Bros chain-sawing, or substantively reducing Elno/tRump slaughtering of the Civil Service.
"Stand back and stand by", people, there's a reckoning coming, for better or for worse.
While these developments cast a glimmer of hope, one has to remember where we are; a level of jurisprudence that represents the sub-basement of legal arguments, having to establish and explain facts that most 6th graders would find patently obvious.
There are several special elections going on right now.
WRITE POSTCARDS!
I just finished a batch for Judge Susan Crawford for Wisconsin Supreme Court. If she gets elected, it likely will mean redistricting in Wisconsin resulting in a 2 to 3 representative increase in Democrats in the US House of Representatives. That is huge.
I don't think you did address the ultimate concern, that even if there were major Supreme Court rulings against him, Trump would simply do what he wants.
For me, I like to think that the military is not inclined to go against the rule of law, especially when it is pushed by Mr. bone spurs.
Ada and I agree - the courts have ruled against PINO a couple of times - has he obeyed yet? "Oh, we're going to obey but it takes time". It's PINO's playing card - delay, obfuscate, start a fire somewhere else. I'm glad we're winningbut think they're hollow victories. Eventually they may add up but not yet.
I don't think these cases are hollow victories at all. They are the front line and are setting the standard for other judges to follow. AND they acknowledge that the actions of us grass-roots folks out here are valid and mean something. That helps us grow. And we are, by leaps and bounds.
You're right that so far the court cases are not enough to finish the job (though they are backing Trump into a corner). Their significance is substantial. Between the courts, the growing resistance from within the Congress and government agencies, and from We the People, together we stand a chance to create a wall beyond which Trump dare not pass. His wavering on the tariffs looked to me like his usual trying to figure out how to back down without losing face, and realizing how deep a hole he'd dug. The rest of the world refuses to follow his script.
I just see Trump as a person who has never had boundaries in his life, and at 79 I don’t see him developing any now. I agree with the judges and what they have said, but who — courtroom officers, US military — will make him follow the law?
I'm asking that if he decides to defy court orders and even the Supreme Court (if they continue to rule against him), will the courts have his lackeys arrested and charged with contempt (since he's 'immune')? I guess there's no way to predict but I'm also wondering how soon the Rs in Congress will (if) start defying him since they're already getting pushback from their constituents and the outcry is growing. Sorry, I know you don't have a crystal ball, Jay, but you're more familiar with these judges than I am. Plus, law enforcement seems to lean more in his direction than not so when I ask about teeth, I can't help wondering how sharp they really are.
This topic was covered in another post here, I believe (but understandable, obviously, that you may not have seen it).
IIRC, U.S. Marshalls can be used to enforce federal court orders. If the Orange Puffalo takes over the U.S. Marshalls' service by installing a sycophant as its chief officer (he hasn't yet), courts can, essentially, round up a posse by hiring private officers to enforce orders, presumably through contempt of court procedures.
I might be wrong, but that's how I remember the post.
It’s all a game, a badly played game when one plays by rules the other doesn’t. How does that work? … It doesn’t and it’s meaningless to complain and raise your arms holding the rule book in righteousness while the other with eyebrows raised simply laughs at you. Yup, it’s meaningless unless the other also follows the rules, but they don’t. So, what’s the enforcement? Exactly, I don’t know either. The time has come ….
Not exactly. The military has a chain of command. Their fealty is to the Constitution, and their duties do NOT include waging war on their own country. As for the National Guard, what I love is that governors of individual states can refuse to allow the federal government to use the National Guard. The conditions are set in law:
(1) the United States, or any of the Commonwealths or possessions, is invaded or is in danger of invasion by a foreign nation;
(2) there is a rebellion or danger of a rebellion against the authority of the Government of the United States; or
(3) the President is unable with the regular forces to execute the laws of the United States;
the President may call into Federal service members and units of the National Guard of any State in such numbers as he considers necessary to repel the invasion, suppress the rebellion, or execute those laws. Orders for these purposes shall be issued through the governors of the States or, in the case of the District of Columbia, through the commanding general of the National Guard of the District of Columbia.
(Added Pub. L. 103–337, div. A, title XVI, § 1662(f)(1), Oct. 5, 1994, 108 Stat. 2994; amended Pub. L. 109–163, div. A, title X, § 1057(a)(5), Jan. 6, 2006, 119 Stat. 3440.)
Now the kicker here is that it is the President who is in rebellion, and who is failing to execute the laws of the United States. So far he has gotten away with it because he has both corrupted the Executive Branch and siphoned the power of the Congress. People are getting pretty pissed off about it.
The cracks are appearing all over the place. So besides the Marshalls, there could also be the possibility that Congress could find its balls and impeach both Trump and Vance for violations against the Constitution and the law of the US, in which case both Marshalls and National Guard troops could be used if he refused to vacate office. He would have NO authority at that point. I say possibility only because it hasn't been done before. Which is not the same thing as it not being possible. If it comes down to that, it could happen.
Yeah, I know Vance is next in line, but that can be fixed too. Double impeachment. Johnson is already close to toast.
Let's hope lawyers who are members of the D.C. Bar have the sense to prevent AG Bondi's brother from becoming the head of the D.C. Bar Association. Should the Bar become MAGA-tized there is no chance it would ever discipline Frump's lawyers (including his DoJ and other government lawyers) from discipline for unethical behavior.
When I heard about brother Bondi, I also heard that those who hear complaints about lawyers are separate from from the Bar president. I hope this is true.
These stories follow the Trump script fairly closely; do something audacious and illegal, then lie about it, attempt some sleight of hand, fail to show up and account for your behavior, hope the counter-parties give up out of fatigue and frustration. He now clearly has a bigger stage; actually there is no bigger stage than the one he's on now, but the script has not become any more sophisticated as the audience has grown. Thank God at least some of us won't be satisfied with government as reality TV. Real adults, not simply folks stuck in adolescence, want serious works of art, not comic book stories. Maybe he can be convinced to follow Mr. Musk to Mars, hoping for a yet bigger stage. Given the success of Space X in launching Mars heavy lifting rockets, he may come back to us as space debris shortly after lift-off; wouldn't we be so lucky...
this is exhausting and we've just begun. astonishing what they attempt and succeed at when subverting the law. akin to finding oneself in a "B"movie and hoping someone will yell "cut". the gravity of the situaltion is very real.
I know. I'm exhausted too. Almost everyone talks about that. It's normal. But as it turns out, the best way out of it is to actually get involved in doing something about it. I've had it with doom-scrollers and handwringers (not that I haven't done some of that myself: I get it). But I and a lot of other people have been keeping sane and even hopeful with the small acts that lead to big results in the aggregate. It may not seem like it, but I think we are seeing those results starting to bear fruit. My sense now is that Trump2 will end with more of a whimper than a bang, because nothing he is trying to do is going the way he expected. He lives in a fantasy world, and he's pulled some other folks in there with him (not Musk, who has his own fantasy world that is starting to seriously clash with Trump's).
Could be interesting. Might be that we just keep pushing, pushing, pushing, and then stand back as it all disintegrates. Then our work starts: picking up the pieces fast before the oligarchs try to grab them. Yep, I believe we can do that. Yes, I do think kind of on the edges of what might happen, and sometimes I miss. But a lot of the time I don't. It beats hiding under a blanket.
Another brilliant piece. But this part confounded me: “Not only do the rulings restore thousands of jobs, one of them even enjoins the government from further “reductions in force” while the restraining order is in place, including the recently announced cuts to the Department of Education.” This only applies to probationary employees, and ED had already fired a lot of those. So this is retrospective, but it doesn’t help the permanent employees who were RIFed on Tuesday, right?
What lawyer, in their right mind, would blatantly lie to a judge? Is this MAGA believing their own mythology? Do think the ruling is not going to be enforced? I'm confused.
There are so many lawyers risking their reputations and even their licenses to be part of the MAGA crowd
I REALLY hope the judges involved sanction these lawyers and the relevant state bars hand down serious penalties.
There is no morality test in the Law School application process.
There is an ethics component to the bar exam. It can be pretty laughable. When I took it back in the 80s, all questions were essay types EXCEPT the ethics. Those were multiple choice. And the thing was, on a couple of them I knew the answer cold and it was.not.a.choice. We were reduced to guessing what the writer of the exam must have thought the answer was.
In fact, that year a large number (over half I think) failed the ethics section, and thus the whole exam. They had to redo the whole ethics section for those folks. I turned out to be a good guesser, and passed. But the whole multiple choice format eliminated any ability to evaluate the subtlety of many ethical questions.
I think we need drug testing and psychological testing before appointment to ALL federal positions. Obviously the felon rapist and musk are heavily involved with drug as well as being sociopathic. These nut jobs should be no where near OUR government, OUR economy or OUR retirement savings.
Can the judges refer lawyers who submit spurious motions, to the state bars?
It's amazing how many otherwise bright people forget that everything and everyone Trump touches turns to shit. And then their brains seem to turn to mush.
I truly don't get it.
This is how you get disbarred without option to reapply here in Australia. Good lord.
Australia does a lot of things correctly including political donations. I am hoping the US catches on to that same idea or two or three...
Maybe the U.S. should be Australia's 7th state or 11th territory. We can let the Dotard make one final choice before we drag him off to the Hague.
I just hope New York State becomes a Canadian Province!
All of the west coast and Hawaii too!
MA, CT, VT et al
pick would prefer we drag him to gizmo. It is rather barren there
let me answer a question with a question. What attorney would be the defense attorney for trump? And there you have it the same caliber of attorney at one is the same at the other. Once John McCain made a quip about being at the bottom of his class at the Naval Academy in the form of someone had to do it. I think these attorneys are the ones that squeak by in law school and the bar exams. The bottom feeders (or the 3% in government we could easily get rid of with no cost to expertise or efficiency.
These attorneys went to the Rudy Giuliani school of law. How to blow up your law career in a few easy steps.
Perhaps anyone who was convicted in a case where Guiliani (or any other Trump-affiliated lawyer) was prosecutor should request their case be reviewed based on the now-obvious lack of legal ethics of the government's representative.
I've thought this for years. Paul Castellanos is probably spinning in his grave.
*Castellano
It used to be quite difficult to get a job at DOJ as a lawyer. It was a coveted position and you had to be highly qualified. I suspect that DOJ lawyers who are still there for the most part would leave if there were other legal jobs to be had, but there aren’t, particularly on a lateral level. So, they’re sticking it out and risking their legal careers by pissing off judges.
Given how long the right wing extremists have been working at their coup, I find myself wondering about assumptions like this. Was the difficulty due to the rigorous standards needed or was the difficulty due to underlying agendas of embedded extremists?
Given that pretty much any accusation that has come out of the right's mouth in recent years is tantamount to a confession on their part, the whole "deep state / swamp" baloney seems less like rants designed to increase paranoia among ill-informed than it does a revelation as to what they've been up to for decades.
I find the Convicted Felon's excuse of a "national emergency" of border crossings and fentanyl trafficking amusing, in light of the fact that border crossings are at a 25-year low and fentanyl seizures and rates of OD'ing are also at an all-time low.
Not to mention that the Convicted Felon was the one that scuttled a bipartisan agreement to improve the security at the border. "Emergency"....riiiiiight.
This gives me a glimmer of hope. Thank you Jay for your assessment of what is happening.
Despite loving "nation-wide" injunctions when MAGA judges - yes, you, Matthew Kacsmaryk and Reed O'Connor - issue nation-wide injunctions, tRump and his DOJ will demand an "emergency" ruling from SCOTUS on all these district-court TROs and injunctions that have nation-wide effects, as they've done in one such case already. We may be quite close to the Supremes either green-lighting the Doge Bros chain-sawing, or substantively reducing Elno/tRump slaughtering of the Civil Service.
"Stand back and stand by", people, there's a reckoning coming, for better or for worse.
Bravo! Will the courts save democracy⁉️ Yes, please!
They will keep it from dying outright but the rest is probably up to us
While these developments cast a glimmer of hope, one has to remember where we are; a level of jurisprudence that represents the sub-basement of legal arguments, having to establish and explain facts that most 6th graders would find patently obvious.
Yes, most definitely.
There are several special elections going on right now.
WRITE POSTCARDS!
I just finished a batch for Judge Susan Crawford for Wisconsin Supreme Court. If she gets elected, it likely will mean redistricting in Wisconsin resulting in a 2 to 3 representative increase in Democrats in the US House of Representatives. That is huge.
You can get involved by searching "Tony the Democrat" or http://www.postcardstovoters.org/
Don't just talk; be active!
Yes!!!
I’m just waiting for someone to flying bitch slap that Orange Moron and his Pet MElonhead
But will the convicted felon follow a judge’s ruling? He thinks he rules the world and his hangers-on promote that, so why obey? Who could make him?
Did my last section not adequately address this concern? Happy to clarify a specific confusion!
I don't think you did address the ultimate concern, that even if there were major Supreme Court rulings against him, Trump would simply do what he wants.
For me, I like to think that the military is not inclined to go against the rule of law, especially when it is pushed by Mr. bone spurs.
Ada and I agree - the courts have ruled against PINO a couple of times - has he obeyed yet? "Oh, we're going to obey but it takes time". It's PINO's playing card - delay, obfuscate, start a fire somewhere else. I'm glad we're winningbut think they're hollow victories. Eventually they may add up but not yet.
I don't think these cases are hollow victories at all. They are the front line and are setting the standard for other judges to follow. AND they acknowledge that the actions of us grass-roots folks out here are valid and mean something. That helps us grow. And we are, by leaps and bounds.
You're right that so far the court cases are not enough to finish the job (though they are backing Trump into a corner). Their significance is substantial. Between the courts, the growing resistance from within the Congress and government agencies, and from We the People, together we stand a chance to create a wall beyond which Trump dare not pass. His wavering on the tariffs looked to me like his usual trying to figure out how to back down without losing face, and realizing how deep a hole he'd dug. The rest of the world refuses to follow his script.
I just see Trump as a person who has never had boundaries in his life, and at 79 I don’t see him developing any now. I agree with the judges and what they have said, but who — courtroom officers, US military — will make him follow the law?
Yes, but what teeth do these injunctions and other rulings actually have if Trump ignores them? What's next?
Did my last section not adequately address this concern? Happy to clarify a specific confusion!
I'm asking that if he decides to defy court orders and even the Supreme Court (if they continue to rule against him), will the courts have his lackeys arrested and charged with contempt (since he's 'immune')? I guess there's no way to predict but I'm also wondering how soon the Rs in Congress will (if) start defying him since they're already getting pushback from their constituents and the outcry is growing. Sorry, I know you don't have a crystal ball, Jay, but you're more familiar with these judges than I am. Plus, law enforcement seems to lean more in his direction than not so when I ask about teeth, I can't help wondering how sharp they really are.
This topic was covered in another post here, I believe (but understandable, obviously, that you may not have seen it).
IIRC, U.S. Marshalls can be used to enforce federal court orders. If the Orange Puffalo takes over the U.S. Marshalls' service by installing a sycophant as its chief officer (he hasn't yet), courts can, essentially, round up a posse by hiring private officers to enforce orders, presumably through contempt of court procedures.
I might be wrong, but that's how I remember the post.
It’s all a game, a badly played game when one plays by rules the other doesn’t. How does that work? … It doesn’t and it’s meaningless to complain and raise your arms holding the rule book in righteousness while the other with eyebrows raised simply laughs at you. Yup, it’s meaningless unless the other also follows the rules, but they don’t. So, what’s the enforcement? Exactly, I don’t know either. The time has come ….
The courts and legislature apparently need their own militias, since the executive branch controls the national guard and the armed services.
Not exactly. The military has a chain of command. Their fealty is to the Constitution, and their duties do NOT include waging war on their own country. As for the National Guard, what I love is that governors of individual states can refuse to allow the federal government to use the National Guard. The conditions are set in law:
(1) the United States, or any of the Commonwealths or possessions, is invaded or is in danger of invasion by a foreign nation;
(2) there is a rebellion or danger of a rebellion against the authority of the Government of the United States; or
(3) the President is unable with the regular forces to execute the laws of the United States;
the President may call into Federal service members and units of the National Guard of any State in such numbers as he considers necessary to repel the invasion, suppress the rebellion, or execute those laws. Orders for these purposes shall be issued through the governors of the States or, in the case of the District of Columbia, through the commanding general of the National Guard of the District of Columbia.
(Added Pub. L. 103–337, div. A, title XVI, § 1662(f)(1), Oct. 5, 1994, 108 Stat. 2994; amended Pub. L. 109–163, div. A, title X, § 1057(a)(5), Jan. 6, 2006, 119 Stat. 3440.)
Now the kicker here is that it is the President who is in rebellion, and who is failing to execute the laws of the United States. So far he has gotten away with it because he has both corrupted the Executive Branch and siphoned the power of the Congress. People are getting pretty pissed off about it.
The cracks are appearing all over the place. So besides the Marshalls, there could also be the possibility that Congress could find its balls and impeach both Trump and Vance for violations against the Constitution and the law of the US, in which case both Marshalls and National Guard troops could be used if he refused to vacate office. He would have NO authority at that point. I say possibility only because it hasn't been done before. Which is not the same thing as it not being possible. If it comes down to that, it could happen.
Yeah, I know Vance is next in line, but that can be fixed too. Double impeachment. Johnson is already close to toast.
My reply to Malice Grant was meant for you. Oversize thumbs.
Let's hope lawyers who are members of the D.C. Bar have the sense to prevent AG Bondi's brother from becoming the head of the D.C. Bar Association. Should the Bar become MAGA-tized there is no chance it would ever discipline Frump's lawyers (including his DoJ and other government lawyers) from discipline for unethical behavior.
When I heard about brother Bondi, I also heard that those who hear complaints about lawyers are separate from from the Bar president. I hope this is true.
If orders are ignored and judges follow the course of law to hold parties in contempt, what would that look like?
(I have this fantasy in my head of all of T’s lackeys crammed into a cell together and eating gruel.)
True, a game and not a true sport played by rules.
Oh for sure, on the optics. But I was thinking more logistically, what would being held in contempt mean in a case like this. Just fines or….?
I erred placing that reply to your comment. It was meant for the comment before you.
👍
I am worried about all those thousands of workers being jerked around. Especially with the government shutdown being highly possible.
Love it! But lets see how long before they are "investigated!"
These stories follow the Trump script fairly closely; do something audacious and illegal, then lie about it, attempt some sleight of hand, fail to show up and account for your behavior, hope the counter-parties give up out of fatigue and frustration. He now clearly has a bigger stage; actually there is no bigger stage than the one he's on now, but the script has not become any more sophisticated as the audience has grown. Thank God at least some of us won't be satisfied with government as reality TV. Real adults, not simply folks stuck in adolescence, want serious works of art, not comic book stories. Maybe he can be convinced to follow Mr. Musk to Mars, hoping for a yet bigger stage. Given the success of Space X in launching Mars heavy lifting rockets, he may come back to us as space debris shortly after lift-off; wouldn't we be so lucky...
Is this drama or comedy or tragicomedy? I give whatever it is two thumbs down.
this is exhausting and we've just begun. astonishing what they attempt and succeed at when subverting the law. akin to finding oneself in a "B"movie and hoping someone will yell "cut". the gravity of the situaltion is very real.
I know. I'm exhausted too. Almost everyone talks about that. It's normal. But as it turns out, the best way out of it is to actually get involved in doing something about it. I've had it with doom-scrollers and handwringers (not that I haven't done some of that myself: I get it). But I and a lot of other people have been keeping sane and even hopeful with the small acts that lead to big results in the aggregate. It may not seem like it, but I think we are seeing those results starting to bear fruit. My sense now is that Trump2 will end with more of a whimper than a bang, because nothing he is trying to do is going the way he expected. He lives in a fantasy world, and he's pulled some other folks in there with him (not Musk, who has his own fantasy world that is starting to seriously clash with Trump's).
Could be interesting. Might be that we just keep pushing, pushing, pushing, and then stand back as it all disintegrates. Then our work starts: picking up the pieces fast before the oligarchs try to grab them. Yep, I believe we can do that. Yes, I do think kind of on the edges of what might happen, and sometimes I miss. But a lot of the time I don't. It beats hiding under a blanket.
Another brilliant piece. But this part confounded me: “Not only do the rulings restore thousands of jobs, one of them even enjoins the government from further “reductions in force” while the restraining order is in place, including the recently announced cuts to the Department of Education.” This only applies to probationary employees, and ED had already fired a lot of those. So this is retrospective, but it doesn’t help the permanent employees who were RIFed on Tuesday, right?
Guess we'd have to read the rulings themselves (or read somebody who is really into deep diving. Lots of good people doing that right now, I bet.
I did! And couldn’t see how it applied to RIFs generally.