As someone who held a TS clearance, this narrative makes me physically ill. It is beyond comprehension that a deranged egomaniacal clown had access to the Nation's most sensitive information. The risk to our security, that of our allies, and that of our sources is incalculable.
It's beyond comprehension that someone so careless about national security is potentially allowed back in the WH to be in charge of our security. His absolute disregard for the process is sickening
Remember that TS clearance, and classifying documents, is not an end goal in itself. Things are classified because the employer wants them classified. The employer are the people of the USA. If the people decide to elect somebody who does not want things classified, then that's our prerogative. Of course, that only applies until he became a private citizen.
That's not a defense of Trump, but a criticism of the vast over-use and mis-use of classification. I utterly disagree with what Trump did, and want certain national secrets protected. But in 2024, it's not my decision - it's the decision of 100+ million voters.
Dammit, it is the responsibility of our Justice Department, Military, and Intelligence Agencies to protect the security and secrets of the United States of America. If that means locking him up in Guantanamo, so be it. Personally, I think he needs a lobotomy.
Not disagreeing on the opinion on the individual, but I consider the first approach extremely dangerous. With some caveats, if we allow individual agencies to override what elected officials decide - and do so without transparency or accountability behind a shield of near absolute secrecy - we don't have a democracy; we have a banana republic. And proposing that the military lock up a sitting President in Guantanamo is the equivalent of advocating for a military coup. A.B.S.O.L.U.T.E.L.Y N.O. W.A.Y.
Even if at the moment you and I at the moment think that the elected official is wrong.
Note: there are certain exceptions. We allow DoJ a high degree of autonomy, as well as certain other organizations such as the Federal Reserve. But those are judiciously applied, and we absolutely cannot allow the military or intelligency agencies that kind of autonomy. Those need to be kept on a much shorter leash than they are, exactly because they have the shield of secrecy.
About this: “For a president who was deeply mistrustful of what he believes was a deep state conspiracy against him” — I do not believe that Trump believes in a deep state conspiracy. That’s an elaborate act. His entire political persona is an elaborate fabrication. I do believe he wants power, wealth, and, above all attention and adoration. And the only way he knows how to get it is to deliver the kind of performance he has delivered since 2015—Well, really, his whole adult life, but in terms of politics, since 2015.
I could not agree more. What that man projects to the public and what is rattling around in his brain are two separate things. To the public, it is all on autopilot based on years and years of reality TV.
What goes on in his rodent infested brain is anybody's guess. I've been saying for a while now it is time for the family to step in and say "ok, Gramps, time to go to the home." Yea, yea, I know they won't, but as things unravel I wouldn't be surprised if the last gasp is he's deemed incompetent.
Well, Ivanka has in fact, in her own smarmy way, decisively distanced herself from the family brand—for self-serving reasons, of course, but still. It's worth noting.
I've noticed that, too. OTOH, she may have distanced because of her husband's windfall from the Saudis and the reason for it.
Oh, lordy, then there's the Christian Nationalist bit, and the Kushners are not only Jewish but observant. Which leaves my brain wondering about that Saudi deal and Kushner's desperate attempt to open the gates for discussions between Israel and the Saudis.
Have they considered looking into Ivana's casket? I hope this is as bad as it sounds for him. He deserves the absolute worse that can happen. Members of Congress who got texts from Mark Meadows also need to suffer some consequences.
I thought everything about her burial was weird. First, who gets buried on a golf course? Even if it is owned by the mother of Trump's children? What happens if the golf course is sold? Are the new owners obligated to keep her there? What about access? Aren't there laws about digging up graves? Can Trump dig her up whenever he feels like it because she's on his property?
Actually, I discovered the hard way that an internment on private property is federally protected and public access must be allowed. I was the head trainer at a horse farm in NJ. There was a colonial era cemetery on the property; a descendant requested a visit for genealogical purposes. Now when you have a horse farm, particularly one with expensive and some what "hot" animals on the property, you don't really want the liability of the non-horsey public tromping through your fields. At the time I was willing to escort the person up to the cemetery (set well back off the road on the top of a hill), but she told two friends, who told two friends, and so on.
After an inquiry to the authorities, I was told I *had* to give them access, but could set times and conditions. In the end, it worked out fine.
So much for the "exclusivity" of Mar-a-lago north.
I also heard stories that she was cremated but there are photos of the pall bearers lifting the casket and they were struggling. He such a horrible person. And her kids went along with this mess. SMDH
If Trump really needed the documents for some political or other nefarious purpose, he could have copied them and still returned the originals, thereby likely terminating any case against him. But he evidently didn’t do that. Why not? I think it’s just Trump bully behavior, showing everyone he thinks he’s top dog and no one can touch him and make it stick.
True enough. But I think if the government had gotten all the original documents in a timely manner, the government would have been so thrilled to have gotten the matter behind them, the government would have closed the case unless someone gave them credible information that Trump had copied the documents.
I think he felt it was "beneath him" to use a copy machine himself. This is also "way out there" but I feel the document concerning the invasion of Iran was copied by Ivanka and Kushner and taken to the Saudi's in exchange for the $2 billion. Many of us are really wondering about the $2 billion supposedly placed in Kushner's private investment fund. Are private investment funds audited by the IRS? It's hot, the air quality is poor here, and I may be going nuts. Is it at all possible Ivanka and Kushner could be subject to a separate grand jury investigation or called by the Grand Jury reviewed the MAL documents case?
Of course, it's possible, but without solid evidence, I don't buy the theory that Jared Kushner is involved here - first, he wouldn't risk the exposure. That would not be what could be sold to MAGA people as a paperwork crime, but is actual, 007-level espionage. Or at least Robert Hansen-level. And second, if Kushner was involved, Trump would have long ago thrown him under the bus and blamed all the classified documents on him.
Other than their perceived dollar value, the documents may also entice Trump from a more primitive/brainstem position of possessing stuff, stuff that might equate to power or dominion, with a petulant reticence to leggo....
To think that this particular organism, this mishmash of neurons is yet again a presidential candidate is simply....reality-bending...
Two things stick out to me. First that it seems entirely possible that the Iran invasion docs and the $2 billion the Saudis gave to Jared Kushner are related. Second, on the other hand, is the possibility that DJT simply lied about the existence of those docs in that September 2021 meeting, the same way J Edgar Hoover lied about "I have in my hands the names of 250 communists".
This may be (!) too silly for such a serious subject, but . . . Does anyone else think this picture of Jack Smith looks like Coach Beard? Every time I see it I am struck by the resemblance!
Yes it does. I had an uncanny moment as an undergrad in art history when Jan van Eyck's Man in a Red Turban was put up for analysis . . . the image was the spitting image of my father! Talk about chills.
A lot of you liked a comment of mine (thank you). Got me thinking. Maybe you have to be a New Yorker to understand how Donald Trump has completely fabricated his MAGA right wing conservative populist persona, and how he doesn’t really believe a stitch of it. If you grew up, as I did, in proximity to where Fred Trump built his Mitchell-Lama co-op, Trump Village; if you grew up with Trump on the cover of the Daily News and the New York Post—You know this guy has no morally grounded stances on gays, guns, God, abortion, or anything else that undergirds his mistakenly identified “policies.” He has no authentic policy positions. All he has is provocations and dog whistles. All he wants is attention, adoration, power, and control.
Donnie's sociopathy also pretty clear to anyone who has read "The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump" (by Bandy X. Lee) or "Too Much and Never Enough" (by Mary Trump).
Dumb question but why can’t we have special juries with security clearances when these types of crimes arise? I mean it would be tried in DC, right? Or even bring Trump before a military court since he was commander in chief. There must be some way to prosecute treasonous criminals fully!
It's not just the juries. You would need everybody in the courtroom to have clearance. The judge, the clerks, defense attorneys and their staff. Not to mention that to make it a fair trial, the defendant would have to be given access to classified documents again - after already being accused of misusing classified information.
The trial would probably also have to be behind closed doors. Some trials are actually done that way when you need the substance of classified material as evidence, but very often that means that the prosecutor ends up saying "you have to take our word for it" and the defense being barred from introducing evidence. That makes for a very lopsided trial.
That's also why Edward Snowden demands a guarantee of a *fair* trial to return to the US.
We should be grateful that it is likely enough here to talk about the documents in the abstract instead of in detail, where these issues are not likely to arise.
Thanks for filling in the detailed section. And, yes, it's not good enough. Basically, it can be summarized as "we can say what we want, just have to file an affidavit that it's classified information". And how would a defendant do discovery of exculpatory evidence? This section results in a kangaroo court, not a fair trial worthy of the democracy we have.
Personally, I think that the prosecution should drop all charges against Snowden with prejudice; that's the least a national hero deserves.
I'm no expert on classified documents, but it seems that Trump ordered people who were not authorized to see them to handle them, in particular, the valet and his lawyer. Secondly, was Bedminster ever searched? Could the FBI have simply quietly searched it and the public does not know? That certainly seems unlikely. If it hasn't been searched, why not? Certainly seems to be plenty of probably cause to get a warrant.
National security aside, all official records, documents, mementos received, notes taken, ledgers, calendars...heck, everything from Jan 20, 2017 to Jan 20, 2021 belong to the American people NOT trump. He has no rights to any of it.
Even if others packed the boxed to go from DC to Mar a Lago, I find it hard to believe that anyone other than Trump put the documents in his desk drawers. Also, I've been wondering for months why no one seemed to be focused on the face that there were missing documents - leading to the question of what did Trump do with them. And who has them now?
The only thing Donald loves more than himself is M-O-N-E-Y. I'm betting he kept those documents with intent to sell and wouldn't be surprised if he actually did. That bipedal skin sack of genetic material shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a MAGICIAN'S secrets, never mind anything having to do with any of our country's national security.
I find it hard to believe Trump hadn't told ANYONE about the documents that haven't been found yet. He is incapable of keeping his trap shut. Especially, when it's something that important. He likes feeling like it's important, he likes knowing he has SOMETHING. He would explode into a thousand pieces if he didn't spill it to someone. So... the question is, WHO. Someone out there knows.
It may be a foregone conclusion, but I believe that tRump knew exactly what he was doing all along. He even played his own attorneys. He trusts no one, that much is clear, and it's also clear that anyone associated with him is fair game when it comes to him using ANYBODY to take the fall for him. No one is above this, and that's abundantly clear.
As for where that Milley War document is, I say dig up Ivana. Funny how she 'accidentally fell' right around the time that those documents were being sought. It even could be that he already had her dug up, retrieved the documents, and made a deal netting him big bucks. Otherwise why would Jared get $2B from the Saudis for 'investment' when Jared doesn't know squat about investing?
I'll be the first to admit that I absolutely detest conspiracy theories, but I dunno, this whole thing stinks. tRump had too much to gain by keeping those docs, and I wouldn't put it past him to sell them to the highest bidder.
As someone who held a TS clearance, this narrative makes me physically ill. It is beyond comprehension that a deranged egomaniacal clown had access to the Nation's most sensitive information. The risk to our security, that of our allies, and that of our sources is incalculable.
It's beyond comprehension that someone so careless about national security is potentially allowed back in the WH to be in charge of our security. His absolute disregard for the process is sickening
Remember that TS clearance, and classifying documents, is not an end goal in itself. Things are classified because the employer wants them classified. The employer are the people of the USA. If the people decide to elect somebody who does not want things classified, then that's our prerogative. Of course, that only applies until he became a private citizen.
That's not a defense of Trump, but a criticism of the vast over-use and mis-use of classification. I utterly disagree with what Trump did, and want certain national secrets protected. But in 2024, it's not my decision - it's the decision of 100+ million voters.
As it should be our entire democratic future will once again dependent upon the voters to protect our country by getting out the vote.
Dammit, it is the responsibility of our Justice Department, Military, and Intelligence Agencies to protect the security and secrets of the United States of America. If that means locking him up in Guantanamo, so be it. Personally, I think he needs a lobotomy.
Not disagreeing on the opinion on the individual, but I consider the first approach extremely dangerous. With some caveats, if we allow individual agencies to override what elected officials decide - and do so without transparency or accountability behind a shield of near absolute secrecy - we don't have a democracy; we have a banana republic. And proposing that the military lock up a sitting President in Guantanamo is the equivalent of advocating for a military coup. A.B.S.O.L.U.T.E.L.Y N.O. W.A.Y.
Even if at the moment you and I at the moment think that the elected official is wrong.
Note: there are certain exceptions. We allow DoJ a high degree of autonomy, as well as certain other organizations such as the Federal Reserve. But those are judiciously applied, and we absolutely cannot allow the military or intelligency agencies that kind of autonomy. Those need to be kept on a much shorter leash than they are, exactly because they have the shield of secrecy.
No lobotomy. I wish Tump a long life with all his mental faculties (such as they are).
The better to have him suffer while sitting in his cage in his orange jump suit, powerless and ignored.
And yet we'll let it happen again if he wins. Because "norms."
About this: “For a president who was deeply mistrustful of what he believes was a deep state conspiracy against him” — I do not believe that Trump believes in a deep state conspiracy. That’s an elaborate act. His entire political persona is an elaborate fabrication. I do believe he wants power, wealth, and, above all attention and adoration. And the only way he knows how to get it is to deliver the kind of performance he has delivered since 2015—Well, really, his whole adult life, but in terms of politics, since 2015.
I could not agree more. What that man projects to the public and what is rattling around in his brain are two separate things. To the public, it is all on autopilot based on years and years of reality TV.
What goes on in his rodent infested brain is anybody's guess. I've been saying for a while now it is time for the family to step in and say "ok, Gramps, time to go to the home." Yea, yea, I know they won't, but as things unravel I wouldn't be surprised if the last gasp is he's deemed incompetent.
Well, Ivanka has in fact, in her own smarmy way, decisively distanced herself from the family brand—for self-serving reasons, of course, but still. It's worth noting.
I've noticed that, too. OTOH, she may have distanced because of her husband's windfall from the Saudis and the reason for it.
Oh, lordy, then there's the Christian Nationalist bit, and the Kushners are not only Jewish but observant. Which leaves my brain wondering about that Saudi deal and Kushner's desperate attempt to open the gates for discussions between Israel and the Saudis.
These people give me a headache.
We can only hope
Have they considered looking into Ivana's casket? I hope this is as bad as it sounds for him. He deserves the absolute worse that can happen. Members of Congress who got texts from Mark Meadows also need to suffer some consequences.
I thought everything about her burial was weird. First, who gets buried on a golf course? Even if it is owned by the mother of Trump's children? What happens if the golf course is sold? Are the new owners obligated to keep her there? What about access? Aren't there laws about digging up graves? Can Trump dig her up whenever he feels like it because she's on his property?
Actually, I discovered the hard way that an internment on private property is federally protected and public access must be allowed. I was the head trainer at a horse farm in NJ. There was a colonial era cemetery on the property; a descendant requested a visit for genealogical purposes. Now when you have a horse farm, particularly one with expensive and some what "hot" animals on the property, you don't really want the liability of the non-horsey public tromping through your fields. At the time I was willing to escort the person up to the cemetery (set well back off the road on the top of a hill), but she told two friends, who told two friends, and so on.
After an inquiry to the authorities, I was told I *had* to give them access, but could set times and conditions. In the end, it worked out fine.
So much for the "exclusivity" of Mar-a-lago north.
I also heard stories that she was cremated but there are photos of the pall bearers lifting the casket and they were struggling. He such a horrible person. And her kids went along with this mess. SMDH
There were 10 pall bearers carrying that casket. That is not normal.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/20/style/ivana-trump-funeral.html?unlocked_article_code=G306Z6HgDhhwZj9Z4jfFaspWZHOxc7HLELGTOorONrXy30x5BNQjaeLU-mBmlCzA1rZAat5Ta7VAiAFKuhtChc9PkvLBdsTm1YsurdyaE2vYUPTw1l-s9Dzalr_o624fWCx7ELUNcwmXBfe_jbvAGdGulwfafhcLAHjBWBW25fROS9JMLQ6rIFJ9ehPDbifypfbq5MMReMEDWyNyaqkGw1JYtKJyo_DxJGH9WRDlQiO0jhX37ShnU8nmgH6Yk1nL-jZcDQs0wjm26CkiSWIsVrwVnHQHuu_e_uURjryyfsa0ukcQuU7Qdo76dQ6rhm_JjBXb0SfLlwLhYtgK&smid=url-share
I posted similar thoughts.
If Trump really needed the documents for some political or other nefarious purpose, he could have copied them and still returned the originals, thereby likely terminating any case against him. But he evidently didn’t do that. Why not? I think it’s just Trump bully behavior, showing everyone he thinks he’s top dog and no one can touch him and make it stick.
The copying would also constitute a separate crime, so if they found out he could still be charged.
True enough. But I think if the government had gotten all the original documents in a timely manner, the government would have been so thrilled to have gotten the matter behind them, the government would have closed the case unless someone gave them credible information that Trump had copied the documents.
I think he felt it was "beneath him" to use a copy machine himself. This is also "way out there" but I feel the document concerning the invasion of Iran was copied by Ivanka and Kushner and taken to the Saudi's in exchange for the $2 billion. Many of us are really wondering about the $2 billion supposedly placed in Kushner's private investment fund. Are private investment funds audited by the IRS? It's hot, the air quality is poor here, and I may be going nuts. Is it at all possible Ivanka and Kushner could be subject to a separate grand jury investigation or called by the Grand Jury reviewed the MAL documents case?
Of course, it's possible, but without solid evidence, I don't buy the theory that Jared Kushner is involved here - first, he wouldn't risk the exposure. That would not be what could be sold to MAGA people as a paperwork crime, but is actual, 007-level espionage. Or at least Robert Hansen-level. And second, if Kushner was involved, Trump would have long ago thrown him under the bus and blamed all the classified documents on him.
How weird that I mentioned Robert Hanssen, and not ten minutes later I saw that he passed away.
I had not thought of that. I think that you are onto something at least deserving of examination.
Other than their perceived dollar value, the documents may also entice Trump from a more primitive/brainstem position of possessing stuff, stuff that might equate to power or dominion, with a petulant reticence to leggo....
To think that this particular organism, this mishmash of neurons is yet again a presidential candidate is simply....reality-bending...
Two things stick out to me. First that it seems entirely possible that the Iran invasion docs and the $2 billion the Saudis gave to Jared Kushner are related. Second, on the other hand, is the possibility that DJT simply lied about the existence of those docs in that September 2021 meeting, the same way J Edgar Hoover lied about "I have in my hands the names of 250 communists".
It doesn't really matter of DJT lied in that meeting or not - even if that was a lie, he still admitted to knowing how declassification works.
This may be (!) too silly for such a serious subject, but . . . Does anyone else think this picture of Jack Smith looks like Coach Beard? Every time I see it I am struck by the resemblance!
Totally looks like Coach Beard. I think the same thing every time I see it, lol.
it absolutely does!
I kinda want buttons made of this photo of Smith (but not the other guy) and sold to raise funds for a worthy cause.
There’s a famous El Greco painting that eerily looks a lot like Smith. It’s called El caballero de la mano en el pecho. Google it 😀
hope it doesn't mean he'll have a ruff time! 😉
Yes it does. I had an uncanny moment as an undergrad in art history when Jan van Eyck's Man in a Red Turban was put up for analysis . . . the image was the spitting image of my father! Talk about chills.
Oh, wow - it really does!
A lot of you liked a comment of mine (thank you). Got me thinking. Maybe you have to be a New Yorker to understand how Donald Trump has completely fabricated his MAGA right wing conservative populist persona, and how he doesn’t really believe a stitch of it. If you grew up, as I did, in proximity to where Fred Trump built his Mitchell-Lama co-op, Trump Village; if you grew up with Trump on the cover of the Daily News and the New York Post—You know this guy has no morally grounded stances on gays, guns, God, abortion, or anything else that undergirds his mistakenly identified “policies.” He has no authentic policy positions. All he has is provocations and dog whistles. All he wants is attention, adoration, power, and control.
You nailed it! I grew up in New York.
Donnie's sociopathy also pretty clear to anyone who has read "The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump" (by Bandy X. Lee) or "Too Much and Never Enough" (by Mary Trump).
Dumb question but why can’t we have special juries with security clearances when these types of crimes arise? I mean it would be tried in DC, right? Or even bring Trump before a military court since he was commander in chief. There must be some way to prosecute treasonous criminals fully!
It's not just the juries. You would need everybody in the courtroom to have clearance. The judge, the clerks, defense attorneys and their staff. Not to mention that to make it a fair trial, the defendant would have to be given access to classified documents again - after already being accused of misusing classified information.
The trial would probably also have to be behind closed doors. Some trials are actually done that way when you need the substance of classified material as evidence, but very often that means that the prosecutor ends up saying "you have to take our word for it" and the defense being barred from introducing evidence. That makes for a very lopsided trial.
That's also why Edward Snowden demands a guarantee of a *fair* trial to return to the US.
We should be grateful that it is likely enough here to talk about the documents in the abstract instead of in detail, where these issues are not likely to arise.
I guess this isn’t good enough for Snowden, who doesn’t really want to come back here anyway…
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18a/compiledact-96-456/section-6
Thanks for filling in the detailed section. And, yes, it's not good enough. Basically, it can be summarized as "we can say what we want, just have to file an affidavit that it's classified information". And how would a defendant do discovery of exculpatory evidence? This section results in a kangaroo court, not a fair trial worthy of the democracy we have.
Personally, I think that the prosecution should drop all charges against Snowden with prejudice; that's the least a national hero deserves.
I do not consider Snowden a hero. But you do you.
Both good ideas, but I'm sure there's some reason why it's not done that way.
That’s why I am asking the question. It seems entirely plausible to me, but I wanted to hear anything Jay or others in the know have to say.
I'm no expert on classified documents, but it seems that Trump ordered people who were not authorized to see them to handle them, in particular, the valet and his lawyer. Secondly, was Bedminster ever searched? Could the FBI have simply quietly searched it and the public does not know? That certainly seems unlikely. If it hasn't been searched, why not? Certainly seems to be plenty of probably cause to get a warrant.
National security aside, all official records, documents, mementos received, notes taken, ledgers, calendars...heck, everything from Jan 20, 2017 to Jan 20, 2021 belong to the American people NOT trump. He has no rights to any of it.
YOU know that. I know that. MOST people know that. Since when does that guy GAF what anyone else thinks?
Even if others packed the boxed to go from DC to Mar a Lago, I find it hard to believe that anyone other than Trump put the documents in his desk drawers. Also, I've been wondering for months why no one seemed to be focused on the face that there were missing documents - leading to the question of what did Trump do with them. And who has them now?
The only thing Donald loves more than himself is M-O-N-E-Y. I'm betting he kept those documents with intent to sell and wouldn't be surprised if he actually did. That bipedal skin sack of genetic material shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a MAGICIAN'S secrets, never mind anything having to do with any of our country's national security.
I find it hard to believe Trump hadn't told ANYONE about the documents that haven't been found yet. He is incapable of keeping his trap shut. Especially, when it's something that important. He likes feeling like it's important, he likes knowing he has SOMETHING. He would explode into a thousand pieces if he didn't spill it to someone. So... the question is, WHO. Someone out there knows.
Thank you so much for your excellent explanation. I wonder what is going on with the January 6 grand jury since Pence has already testified there.
That grand jury is trailing in terms of how close they are to being done. It’s not clear how much more work remains.
It may be a foregone conclusion, but I believe that tRump knew exactly what he was doing all along. He even played his own attorneys. He trusts no one, that much is clear, and it's also clear that anyone associated with him is fair game when it comes to him using ANYBODY to take the fall for him. No one is above this, and that's abundantly clear.
As for where that Milley War document is, I say dig up Ivana. Funny how she 'accidentally fell' right around the time that those documents were being sought. It even could be that he already had her dug up, retrieved the documents, and made a deal netting him big bucks. Otherwise why would Jared get $2B from the Saudis for 'investment' when Jared doesn't know squat about investing?
I'll be the first to admit that I absolutely detest conspiracy theories, but I dunno, this whole thing stinks. tRump had too much to gain by keeping those docs, and I wouldn't put it past him to sell them to the highest bidder.