This was all over cable news this morning. None of it surprised me, and as Jay wonders, who leaked the tapes? Probably the defense attorneys because they knew it was going to come out sooner or later. Better sooner, of course, as when it's a surprise it's worse. That said, I was thinking about that period between Election Day and Inauguration Day...I actually asked some of my attorney friends, seriously, what if Trump decides not to leave the WH? Physically. Who comes to get him? The Secret Service, a detail from the U.S. Marine Corps? A special Congressional escort? Whoa! Nobody was able to give me a conclusive answer. Did anybody else have this nightmare?
I had wondered the same thing, but in the end, it was likely not possible in the first place. If he wanted to stay and have any veneer of "legitimacy" he would have had to hold some kind of re-inauguration in public, outside the WH.
But just assuming that he *had* tried, my guess is that Biden's Secret Service detail would have physically dragged him out, just like an evicted tenant.
I was actually hoping for that scenario. Nothing would have made me happier than to see him being dragged kicking and screaming down the steps of the White House. It would have been a joy to behold and a memory to cherish.
When this is all over, Jenna MIGHT be fit to waitress at a Cracker Barrel. 🙄 But the lack of integrity is breathtaking... thanks for the clear explanation. (Still makes me wonder what it is about Trump that makes these folks find the worst in themselves and act on it)
I know, it's mind boggling. How all these people went a long with a scheme they knew was illegal. Does he put drugs in the diet cokes? Is it in the hamburgers?
It is estimated that 1% to 6% of the population are sociopaths. Sociopathy is more common in men than women. But maybe Jenna is pushing the ratio a tiny bit closer toward women.
What's more, the percentage in the top echelons of society, politicians, corporate C-suites etc., is said to be (and appears to be) dramatically higher. That's the main reason we need the system of checks and balances in the first place.
Benning, S. D., Patrick, C. J., Hicks, B. M., Blonigen, D. M., & Krueger, R. F. (2003). Factor structure of the psychopathic personality inventory: Validity and implications for clinical assessment. Psychological Assessment, 15(3), 340-350.
Boddy, C. R. (2014). Corporate Psychopaths, Conflict, Employee Affective Well-Being and Counterproductive Work Behaviour. Journal of Business Ethics, 121(1), 107-121.
Boddy, C. R. (2017). Psychopathic Leadership. A Case Study of a Corporate Psychopath CEO. Journal of Business Ethics, 145(1), 141-156.
Landay, K., Harms, P. D., & Crede, M. (2019). Shall We Serve the Dark Lords? A Meta-Analytic Review of Psychopathy and Leadership. Journal of Applied Psychology, 104(1), 183-196.
Lilienfeld, S. O., Latzman, R. D., Watts, A. L., Smith, S. F., & Dutton, K. (2014). Correlates of psychopathic personality traits in everyday life: results from a large community survey. Frontiers in Psychology, 5.
Muscatello, M. R. A., Bruno, A., Genovese, G., Gallo, G., Zoccali, R. A., & Battaglia, F. (2017). Personality Traits Predict a Medical Student Preference to Pursue a Career in Surgery. Education for Health, 30(3), 211-214.
Neumann, C. S., Schmitt, D. S., Carter, R., Embley, I., & Hare, R. D. (2012). Psychopathic Traits in Females and Males across the Globe. Behavioral Sciences & the Law, 30(5), 557-574.
Smith, S. F., & Lilienfeld, S. O. (2013). Psychopathy in the workplace: The knowns and unknowns. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 18(2), 204-218.
Just remember that Trump, Bannon, and Stephen Miller want to fill the military with like-minded... ummm, how to say this? Oh, the hell with it. Sociopaths.
THAT is an interesting stat. They cant see right from wrong? They cant evaluate another persons words and deeds to determine their trustworthiness or value? I mean, Trump has been a supreme asshole his entire life. 🤷🏼♀️ Definitely a psychological condition.
It isn’t any of those things, Susan, it’s that they don’t care. Sociopaths, ONLY care about themselves and what they want. They don’t care about anyone else, they are not in the slightest bit sympathetic or empathetic. All they care about is meeting their own wants, not even needs and they don’t care how they do that or who they hurt.
I really truly hope she loses her law license. And then can't even get a job as a paralegal, legal secretary, nighttime transcriptionist, or receptionist.
I'm not being vindictive, just looking for some justice. The woman doesn't have the brain cells to rub together to advise anyone or be in any position of authority or expertise.
Guessing she suddenly acquired a competent attorney, who proceeded to make her see that there would actually be consequences for her nonsense - as in the aforementioned 5 years in a Georgia state pen.
Trump is always a victim. There is always distraction, whataboutism, denial, attacks and undisguised provocation in everything he says. Why is anyone, most particularly the press, still able to get away with pretending to be surprised about anything he does or says?? 'Never leaving, no matter what' is normal for him.
Recently added your Stack to my must-read list. Thank you for adding to my understanding. Much legal wrangling for sure, but I’m holding out hope with so many brilliant minds on the side of preserving democracy.
Thanks for the link, Shire. It is a good reminder of how long we have been tortured with this diabolical slow-rolling coup -- July 2022 article reflecting on December 2020 conversation. Yikes and sigh, all at once.
Thank you once again for filling in the legal niceties of a BIG piece of news.
If Trump planned to simply "not leave," how did it play out that he was compelled to do so? I am beginning better to understand his refusal to assist the transition of power in any manner whatsoever. He didn't believe that there would actually be one.
At what point do his "beliefs" in demonstrably untrue things (like a stolen election that wasn't, that he could be "reinstated" when he can't, and that Barack Obama is either the sitting president or is "controlling" Joe Biden), become compelling evidence of his mental incompetence certifiable in a court of law? He needs to be confined for his own protection and for ours as well.
I truly feel he never really "believed" he won the election, I think he was told enough times that it isn't actually something he thought was true. But being the narcissist that he is he couldn't let his followers believe he lost. It's his MO- repeat lies so often that those true followers will believe whatever you say. I mean come on, 3 years later and he's still yapping about it. Keep it out there in the universe, keep those people thinking that the "Real evidence" will be released in 2 weeks. He can't quit now, his personality doesn't let him admit defeat.
I don't think the absence of certifiable mental incompetence is listed in the Constitution as a qualification for President. And that's a good thing. We wouldn't legally ban somebody from the Presidency because he has the flu or is in a wheelchair (it's bad enough that this would make excellent candidates not telegenic enough to get enough votes!). Most mental disorders are similar; very few involve the kind of full-blown detachment from reality that you see in the movies.
If you hit your late 70s and go into the hospital with a high degree of confusion about what is true and what is not, you are very likely to be placed in a ward from which you cannot voluntarily depart. It happens all the time.
You are making my point. That's what you see in the movies, not the reality of mental disorders. And, no, it does not look to me like Trump, even as an ordinary citizen, could be legally committed to a psych ward.
Reagan also displayed a high degree of confusion (as we now know, probably due to the early stages of Alzheimer's) At some point, such a condition can become a matter for the 25th Amendment. But not usually for a psych ward.
And yet there are STILL people who should know better who think "Why should I leave IF THEY STOLE IT FROM ME?" is some kind of an excuse or an out.
Dictators don't call themselves dictators. Dictators don't say "I know I lost the election but F it I'm staying in office anyway." In the countries Trump openly, explicitly prefers to this one, that's not how it happens. This is how it happens.
Do you know why they didn't do this before? It seems that, with someone like Trump, his legal team leaking info is highly likely, and that prosecutors would have expected they would do it, if allowed.
Is it wrong to think that trump trying to not leave might have been a good thing? Because at that point he moves from "Mob boss talk" to "Dictator actions." There were enough loyal leaders, Gen. Milley for example, who would have taken orders only from Biden as soon as he was sworn in (I don't see Justice Roberts going along with a coup). The secret service might have been problematic, but a shoot out between agents would have been over quickly. Would it have been a huge mess? Sure, but trump would be in jail at the end of it.
The Supreme Court went along with the Bush Coup in 2000. I wouldn't trust them, including Roberts who has his own shifty business with his wife's vetting of lawyers. Now they have a ethics code which they don't have to follow, big deal.
Donald Trump the MEGALOMANIAC, is truly dangerous. He belongs in a maximum security prison. He is a ruthless law breaker that will stop at nothing. The idea of Normal is so far gone by now in the USA. Biden is a true hero to keep on keeping on with this crazy maniac on the loose, and trying to return us to a normal that may never be again.
This was all over cable news this morning. None of it surprised me, and as Jay wonders, who leaked the tapes? Probably the defense attorneys because they knew it was going to come out sooner or later. Better sooner, of course, as when it's a surprise it's worse. That said, I was thinking about that period between Election Day and Inauguration Day...I actually asked some of my attorney friends, seriously, what if Trump decides not to leave the WH? Physically. Who comes to get him? The Secret Service, a detail from the U.S. Marine Corps? A special Congressional escort? Whoa! Nobody was able to give me a conclusive answer. Did anybody else have this nightmare?
I think it might begin with the GSA changing the locks but not sure!
Just wondering - Does the White House even have locks (and if so, why? It's kinda like IHOP - always open, or at least never completely empty . . .)?
I had wondered the same thing, but in the end, it was likely not possible in the first place. If he wanted to stay and have any veneer of "legitimacy" he would have had to hold some kind of re-inauguration in public, outside the WH.
But just assuming that he *had* tried, my guess is that Biden's Secret Service detail would have physically dragged him out, just like an evicted tenant.
I was kind of wanting to see that. I figured someone would be dragging him out, I didn't care who
I was actually hoping for that scenario. Nothing would have made me happier than to see him being dragged kicking and screaming down the steps of the White House. It would have been a joy to behold and a memory to cherish.
That would be a "Pay-per-view" event that could put a dent in the massive hole Cheetolini and the GQP blew in the national budget . . .
Yes.
I did wonder this same thing: if Trump had refused to leave, who would force him to, and how would it work?
Day in and day out.
When this is all over, Jenna MIGHT be fit to waitress at a Cracker Barrel. 🙄 But the lack of integrity is breathtaking... thanks for the clear explanation. (Still makes me wonder what it is about Trump that makes these folks find the worst in themselves and act on it)
That's not being fair to all professional Cracker Barrel waitresses everywhere! Seriously.
True. They WORK for their money.
I know, it's mind boggling. How all these people went a long with a scheme they knew was illegal. Does he put drugs in the diet cokes? Is it in the hamburgers?
It is estimated that 1% to 6% of the population are sociopaths. Sociopathy is more common in men than women. But maybe Jenna is pushing the ratio a tiny bit closer toward women.
What's more, the percentage in the top echelons of society, politicians, corporate C-suites etc., is said to be (and appears to be) dramatically higher. That's the main reason we need the system of checks and balances in the first place.
Benning, S. D., Patrick, C. J., Hicks, B. M., Blonigen, D. M., & Krueger, R. F. (2003). Factor structure of the psychopathic personality inventory: Validity and implications for clinical assessment. Psychological Assessment, 15(3), 340-350.
Boddy, C. R. (2014). Corporate Psychopaths, Conflict, Employee Affective Well-Being and Counterproductive Work Behaviour. Journal of Business Ethics, 121(1), 107-121.
Boddy, C. R. (2017). Psychopathic Leadership. A Case Study of a Corporate Psychopath CEO. Journal of Business Ethics, 145(1), 141-156.
Landay, K., Harms, P. D., & Crede, M. (2019). Shall We Serve the Dark Lords? A Meta-Analytic Review of Psychopathy and Leadership. Journal of Applied Psychology, 104(1), 183-196.
Lilienfeld, S. O., Latzman, R. D., Watts, A. L., Smith, S. F., & Dutton, K. (2014). Correlates of psychopathic personality traits in everyday life: results from a large community survey. Frontiers in Psychology, 5.
Muscatello, M. R. A., Bruno, A., Genovese, G., Gallo, G., Zoccali, R. A., & Battaglia, F. (2017). Personality Traits Predict a Medical Student Preference to Pursue a Career in Surgery. Education for Health, 30(3), 211-214.
Neumann, C. S., Schmitt, D. S., Carter, R., Embley, I., & Hare, R. D. (2012). Psychopathic Traits in Females and Males across the Globe. Behavioral Sciences & the Law, 30(5), 557-574.
Smith, S. F., & Lilienfeld, S. O. (2013). Psychopathy in the workplace: The knowns and unknowns. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 18(2), 204-218.
Exactly Kevin. Thank you for posting that!
Agreed.
Just remember that Trump, Bannon, and Stephen Miller want to fill the military with like-minded... ummm, how to say this? Oh, the hell with it. Sociopaths.
THAT is an interesting stat. They cant see right from wrong? They cant evaluate another persons words and deeds to determine their trustworthiness or value? I mean, Trump has been a supreme asshole his entire life. 🤷🏼♀️ Definitely a psychological condition.
It isn’t any of those things, Susan, it’s that they don’t care. Sociopaths, ONLY care about themselves and what they want. They don’t care about anyone else, they are not in the slightest bit sympathetic or empathetic. All they care about is meeting their own wants, not even needs and they don’t care how they do that or who they hurt.
Right. Dangerous to have these people in our government. :(
Hamberders and covfefe.
maybe is was in the ketchup if tfg was willing to share his!
He’s a hate virus.
I really truly hope she loses her law license. And then can't even get a job as a paralegal, legal secretary, nighttime transcriptionist, or receptionist.
I'm not being vindictive, just looking for some justice. The woman doesn't have the brain cells to rub together to advise anyone or be in any position of authority or expertise.
Couldn’t agree more. 👍🏻
Fascinating. And up until her indictment,
Jenna was still spewing the BIG LIE. It’s interesting to see how deeply dug in she was.
I believer she was STILL spewing the Big Lie on her FB page AFTER the indictment...
Guessing she suddenly acquired a competent attorney, who proceeded to make her see that there would actually be consequences for her nonsense - as in the aforementioned 5 years in a Georgia state pen.
And a state conviction can't be given a presidential pardon.
"Respecting the law and the process is part of what is required in our system, even if you’re the president." ESPECIALLY if you're the president.
Janet, you read my mind. I thought exactly the same thing!!!
Yeah - I mean it's the actual Oath of Office...
Trump is always a victim. There is always distraction, whataboutism, denial, attacks and undisguised provocation in everything he says. Why is anyone, most particularly the press, still able to get away with pretending to be surprised about anything he does or says?? 'Never leaving, no matter what' is normal for him.
His playbook contains four words: Deny, Deflect, Stall, Lie
You forgot 'complain'....
Whine?
Recently added your Stack to my must-read list. Thank you for adding to my understanding. Much legal wrangling for sure, but I’m holding out hope with so many brilliant minds on the side of preserving democracy.
Be sure to subscribe! Well worth it..especially on Saturdays!
I’m still in disbelief that anyone supports these idiots. What the heck has happened to our country???
Yeah, but tax cuts!
Which were temporary and puny for regular Americans to be followed by a large tax hike. While Billionaires got a permanent huge gift.
Meadows voiced same intent, to not leave WH, so I believe this settles as corroborated;
https://www.businessinsider.com/ex-wh-aide-meadows-said-trump-wasnt-leaving-2020-loss-2022-7
Thanks for the link, Shire. It is a good reminder of how long we have been tortured with this diabolical slow-rolling coup -- July 2022 article reflecting on December 2020 conversation. Yikes and sigh, all at once.
Yes, tortured is correct, we should be able to sue tfg for punitive damages. 💙
The ultimate class action suit!!
I'm in!
Sounds good!! 👍
The timeline certainly lines up. Wow! Great reveal! No wonder tRump went off the rails the day before at his "vermin" rally.
Could the video be admitted as evidence to the 14th amendment lawsuits here in Colorado and other states?
No, there WOULD be a hearsay problem if Ellis did not herself testify I think.
Can trump question Ellis how do you no there telling the truth
Obviously they could be bribed.
Thank you once again for filling in the legal niceties of a BIG piece of news.
If Trump planned to simply "not leave," how did it play out that he was compelled to do so? I am beginning better to understand his refusal to assist the transition of power in any manner whatsoever. He didn't believe that there would actually be one.
At what point do his "beliefs" in demonstrably untrue things (like a stolen election that wasn't, that he could be "reinstated" when he can't, and that Barack Obama is either the sitting president or is "controlling" Joe Biden), become compelling evidence of his mental incompetence certifiable in a court of law? He needs to be confined for his own protection and for ours as well.
I truly feel he never really "believed" he won the election, I think he was told enough times that it isn't actually something he thought was true. But being the narcissist that he is he couldn't let his followers believe he lost. It's his MO- repeat lies so often that those true followers will believe whatever you say. I mean come on, 3 years later and he's still yapping about it. Keep it out there in the universe, keep those people thinking that the "Real evidence" will be released in 2 weeks. He can't quit now, his personality doesn't let him admit defeat.
I don't think the absence of certifiable mental incompetence is listed in the Constitution as a qualification for President. And that's a good thing. We wouldn't legally ban somebody from the Presidency because he has the flu or is in a wheelchair (it's bad enough that this would make excellent candidates not telegenic enough to get enough votes!). Most mental disorders are similar; very few involve the kind of full-blown detachment from reality that you see in the movies.
If you hit your late 70s and go into the hospital with a high degree of confusion about what is true and what is not, you are very likely to be placed in a ward from which you cannot voluntarily depart. It happens all the time.
You are making my point. That's what you see in the movies, not the reality of mental disorders. And, no, it does not look to me like Trump, even as an ordinary citizen, could be legally committed to a psych ward.
Reagan also displayed a high degree of confusion (as we now know, probably due to the early stages of Alzheimer's) At some point, such a condition can become a matter for the 25th Amendment. But not usually for a psych ward.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/11/04/florida-guardianship-investigation-safeguards/
someone just needs to get him to that hospital
I don't think ballot harvesting is either.
And yet there are STILL people who should know better who think "Why should I leave IF THEY STOLE IT FROM ME?" is some kind of an excuse or an out.
Dictators don't call themselves dictators. Dictators don't say "I know I lost the election but F it I'm staying in office anyway." In the countries Trump openly, explicitly prefers to this one, that's not how it happens. This is how it happens.
Here's hoping the video copies handed over to the defense were watermarked.
Will there be an investigation of the leak? Or is the absence of a specific order enough so that no laws were broken?
Thanks for another clear article.
The DA has moved for an emergency protective order to stop leaks of discovered evidence.
Do you know why they didn't do this before? It seems that, with someone like Trump, his legal team leaking info is highly likely, and that prosecutors would have expected they would do it, if allowed.
Is it wrong to think that trump trying to not leave might have been a good thing? Because at that point he moves from "Mob boss talk" to "Dictator actions." There were enough loyal leaders, Gen. Milley for example, who would have taken orders only from Biden as soon as he was sworn in (I don't see Justice Roberts going along with a coup). The secret service might have been problematic, but a shoot out between agents would have been over quickly. Would it have been a huge mess? Sure, but trump would be in jail at the end of it.
The Supreme Court went along with the Bush Coup in 2000. I wouldn't trust them, including Roberts who has his own shifty business with his wife's vetting of lawyers. Now they have a ethics code which they don't have to follow, big deal.
THE BOSS! Bruce Springsteen should sue him for IP infringement.
🤣🤣🤣
Donald Trump the MEGALOMANIAC, is truly dangerous. He belongs in a maximum security prison. He is a ruthless law breaker that will stop at nothing. The idea of Normal is so far gone by now in the USA. Biden is a true hero to keep on keeping on with this crazy maniac on the loose, and trying to return us to a normal that may never be again.