Excellent. Because I've been reading your pieces for a while, I actually understood most of what you were talking about. You're an excellent teacher. Have a great weekend.
All those mobsters who Giuliani prosecuted are definitely savoring this. (And Giuliani sounds a little like someone who got attacked by leopards while voting for the Leopards Ate My Face party - this law wasn't supposed to catch me up! It's for other people!)
I thought RICO was written to fight organized crime (aka the Mafia) as opposed to street gangs. But it works against both types of gangs.
For me it's very telling how hard the GQP is pressing to eliminate the threat of prosecution. If they thought the charges were truly complete nonsense and baseless, they'd be pushing for speedier trials to get it over with before the election cycle heats up. I mean what better way to strengthen a candidate than to show how they beat 4 indictments. Instead they're trying to do everything they can to either eliminate the prosecution completely, or to delay the trials until after the election. How come that is? Why is that necessary for someone who's innocent, as they proclaim? Spoiler alert, they know he's going to be found guilty and are doing whatever they can to prevent that from spoiling the election in his favor.
Exactly. Especially in the documents case, where they have a Trump-appointed judge who's already shown she's friendly to his case, and a jury pool of Florida residents. Yet even under _those_ circumstances it's obvious that Trump knows they'll find him guilty when presented with the facts.
“And Trump is no doubt furious at Kemp and Burns for cutting off this particular avenue of political attack.”
Wait--are you telling me that “Tell people what you want them to do, if that doesn’t work yell it at them, and if that doesn’t work scream it at them” has downsides as a philosophy of life? The hell you say!
Speaking of tables, Cree Hardegree had a good write up on just how many tables will be needed once this gets underway, it’s going to take a stadium sized room!
Also in GA , Gov. Kemp is taking a strong line against "patriotic" members of the Georgia legislature, who are braying for the head of Fani Willis, as for example state Sen. Colton Moore, a 30-yr MAGA dude, who was talking about "drawing my rifle" if the prosecution of his Orange Jaysus continues. As Robert Hubbell points out, fracture lines between the MAGA Repubs and the more sane elements of the party are widening, with tRump acting as the wedge splitting it...this can only aid democracy in the long term.
It didn't help trump that he bad mouthed Kemp for a few years. That'll build up some resentment. I get the feeling that Kemp can hold a grudge. Plus, trump just made Georgia as a whole look bad, no one likes when that happens to their state.
Thanks for the clarity! I also hope Trump goes berserk on social media. Waiting for him to be sitting in prison because he couldn't keep his mouth shut.
I can’t pretend to know all the legal jargon, but you put it in a format that makes sense and easy to comprehend. I get it. They all were working towards one goal and that was to keep Trump in power. Whether Meadows claims his role was that of Chief of Staff or not, he played a part towards the goal of the others. Thank you again Jay!
And as CoS, his job was not to get trump reelected or keep him in power. His job was to run the office of the president. Not the reelection of the president.
I LOVE the way Fani Willis's mind works. That RICO argument, like her Hatch Act argument, is genius. She has clearly been thinking this through, in all its intricate parts, since that first special grand jury started hearing the evidence. Watch trump's lawyers whine that since THEY didn't get to find out about the evidence until "recently" that it's just so unfair that she had all this time to prepare for the best way to USE that evidence.
He wanted to be immune due to supremacy but also wanted his first amendment political speech. So which is it mr meadows? She called his, likely unawares, bluff.
She did use his argument against him, but in this brief Meadows seems to have completely ignored the second requirement for removal, which I believe unravels here because the Supreme Clause is not a complete defense to charge someone joined a RICO action, when all it might do is knock out some overt acts. (Note that overt acts and predicate acts are not necessarily the same thing.)
Quite a bit of the evidence is trump's own words plus the January 6th information which trump's legal team can easily get and start working on although if they were competent they would have already scoured this stuff. Also discovery now is electronic searches, not sitting in a room with boxes and boxes of papers. The lawyers know this but they are playing to rubes they can grift.
of course. I was just pointing out that the trump lawyer's response to pretty much everything has been whining about time. I suspect a trump lawyer does have an unusually difficult time learning the facts they are dealing with, given that trump lies about them all the time.
The facts have been readily available for at least two years, most even to the general public. And the Jan 6 Commission made that unavoidable. They know this already but just continue to whine. It’s is all they have.
wouldn't surprise me if DOJ had a search term in its indexing that says "things the public doesn't know yet." It would be a small, but helpful, timesaver.
At times, I begin to feel incredibly depressed about the state of things, but when Jay explains it, I walk away with a clearer mind and feel less anxious. Also I am amazed Kemp is doing the right thing. Thank goodness. Great column-I’m so glad I’m here. ✌️
I’ve told this story elsewhere, but not here I don’t think:
About 30 years ago in the city I grew up in, two guys held up a store at gunpoint. The police arrived quickly and ordered them to drop their guns and surrender.
One of them did. He was hustled into handcuffs and into the back of a police car. The other guy took a shot at the police and ran off, dodging bullets and ducking into alleys and cutting through backyards.
For about 15 minutes, the first guy sat in the police car while they all looked for the other guy.
Finally they cornered him in an abandoned house a few blocks away. He decided to come out shooting, and killed a cop before the others shot and killed him.
The first guy, who embarked on a robbery of a store, surrendered when confronted and was sitting in the back of a police car, was charged with and convicted of the murder of the cop.
But we’re on Year 3 of trying to unravel the—to put it generously—thoughts of Donald Trump in an attempt to determine whether he had anything to do with Jan. 6.
This is a great example of the principle of “felony murder” where you can be charged with murder if someone dies in the course of the commission of a felony, even if you didn’t directly cause it. It’s somewhat different than RICO conspiracy, which requires a criminal organization, but it runs along some of the same ideas.
Regarding the Georgia rico charges and meadows, it's my understanding that someone has to be accused of 2 or more predicate acts (these have to be criminal) for rico to apply. These acts could overlap with overt acts towards conspiracy charges but they have to be distinct acts that are illegal.
I think Fani will show that meadows violated specific geoegia law (predicate) and made moves in furtherance of the conspiracy (overt).
Your analysis of this has highlighted, even if he didn't participate with overt acts, to be included in rico he had to have committed at least 2 predicate illegal acts. Sounds like the calls to raffensbergers office and organizing the fake electors, etc are enough to charge him with rico.
Agree with you up to a point. Meadows doesn’t have to have himself committed any of the predicate acts. It’s enough that someone within the RICO conspiracy did, and he joined the conspiracy. Does that make sense?
You run a auto repair garage - legally. Then someone brings in a stolen car and asks you to change the and VIN (both illegal). Turns out that they use it to rob banks. This is considered a RICO case by the DA and you're included even though you never participated in the robberies.
Rico in Georgia requires 2 or more predicate acts that are illegal. Conspiracy doesn't necessarily require predicate acts (illegal acts) only acts in furtherance of the conspiracy (overt acts).
In your scenario, yes the person erasing vins which is illegal could be wrapped up in rico.
The meidas touch network on YouTube with their legal analysts breaks this down much nicer than I do.
But suffice it to say, Georgia's rico requires 2 or more predicate acts to be included in rico.
Grateful for the reinforced rule of law position stated by Kemp, the live feed court decision by the judge, and for you! Sharing another example of our DOJ standing up for election integrity, these two also acted in furtherance of the lies told by Cult & Co (conspirators).
Excellent. Because I've been reading your pieces for a while, I actually understood most of what you were talking about. You're an excellent teacher. Have a great weekend.
I agree! I have learned so much from Jay.
From Talking Points Memo: former prosecutors, judges and officials have submitted an amicus brief on why removal is inappropriate:
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23925845-georgia-v-meadowsclark-amicus-brief
Meadows must be feeling like everyone is pilling on; how sad for him! NOT!
Wow, impressive and informative! Thanks for posting.
“(The law was written broadly to target street gangs, but it rather karmically now applies to these white collars, too.)”
Thank you for saying this aloud, Jay.
Sucks to commit crimes in a “tough on crime” state.
Karma is a bitch
She does keep score.
All those mobsters who Giuliani prosecuted are definitely savoring this. (And Giuliani sounds a little like someone who got attacked by leopards while voting for the Leopards Ate My Face party - this law wasn't supposed to catch me up! It's for other people!)
I thought RICO was written to fight organized crime (aka the Mafia) as opposed to street gangs. But it works against both types of gangs.
For me it's very telling how hard the GQP is pressing to eliminate the threat of prosecution. If they thought the charges were truly complete nonsense and baseless, they'd be pushing for speedier trials to get it over with before the election cycle heats up. I mean what better way to strengthen a candidate than to show how they beat 4 indictments. Instead they're trying to do everything they can to either eliminate the prosecution completely, or to delay the trials until after the election. How come that is? Why is that necessary for someone who's innocent, as they proclaim? Spoiler alert, they know he's going to be found guilty and are doing whatever they can to prevent that from spoiling the election in his favor.
Oh 100%. They should have cut ties with the orange menace on Jan 7.
They are the yellow of the red in orange.
Exactly. Especially in the documents case, where they have a Trump-appointed judge who's already shown she's friendly to his case, and a jury pool of Florida residents. Yet even under _those_ circumstances it's obvious that Trump knows they'll find him guilty when presented with the facts.
And let us not forget the voter suppression they are so big on yet screaming about the vote!
Always so informative! Thank you Jay! Wishing you a great day and amazing rest of the year!
“And Trump is no doubt furious at Kemp and Burns for cutting off this particular avenue of political attack.”
Wait--are you telling me that “Tell people what you want them to do, if that doesn’t work yell it at them, and if that doesn’t work scream it at them” has downsides as a philosophy of life? The hell you say!
"If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts;
if you have the law on your side, pound the law;
if you have neither the facts nor the law, pound the table."
“... and threaten the judge and the prosecutor’s family, like they do in the countries you openly and explicitly prefer to this one.”
Speaking of tables, Cree Hardegree had a good write up on just how many tables will be needed once this gets underway, it’s going to take a stadium sized room!
I'm sure they have an arena or theater somewhere in Atlanta they can free up for a bit.
Plus expect about 1/4 to 1/3 to bail out of being on trial with guilty pleas to get it over and get a good deal.
Also in GA , Gov. Kemp is taking a strong line against "patriotic" members of the Georgia legislature, who are braying for the head of Fani Willis, as for example state Sen. Colton Moore, a 30-yr MAGA dude, who was talking about "drawing my rifle" if the prosecution of his Orange Jaysus continues. As Robert Hubbell points out, fracture lines between the MAGA Repubs and the more sane elements of the party are widening, with tRump acting as the wedge splitting it...this can only aid democracy in the long term.
It didn't help trump that he bad mouthed Kemp for a few years. That'll build up some resentment. I get the feeling that Kemp can hold a grudge. Plus, trump just made Georgia as a whole look bad, no one likes when that happens to their state.
Thanks for the clarity! I also hope Trump goes berserk on social media. Waiting for him to be sitting in prison because he couldn't keep his mouth shut.
He’s already more than a bit unhinged there.
Good!
He only does ‘berserk.’ It’s all he has ever known or done. This time it may be what finally hangs him.
From your lips...
I can’t pretend to know all the legal jargon, but you put it in a format that makes sense and easy to comprehend. I get it. They all were working towards one goal and that was to keep Trump in power. Whether Meadows claims his role was that of Chief of Staff or not, he played a part towards the goal of the others. Thank you again Jay!
And as CoS, his job was not to get trump reelected or keep him in power. His job was to run the office of the president. Not the reelection of the president.
I LOVE the way Fani Willis's mind works. That RICO argument, like her Hatch Act argument, is genius. She has clearly been thinking this through, in all its intricate parts, since that first special grand jury started hearing the evidence. Watch trump's lawyers whine that since THEY didn't get to find out about the evidence until "recently" that it's just so unfair that she had all this time to prepare for the best way to USE that evidence.
She just used meadows own arguments against him.
He wanted to be immune due to supremacy but also wanted his first amendment political speech. So which is it mr meadows? She called his, likely unawares, bluff.
She did use his argument against him, but in this brief Meadows seems to have completely ignored the second requirement for removal, which I believe unravels here because the Supreme Clause is not a complete defense to charge someone joined a RICO action, when all it might do is knock out some overt acts. (Note that overt acts and predicate acts are not necessarily the same thing.)
It’s an unintentional bluff. Like I said before, it’s what happens when you could plead not guilty but you plead F You instead.
FAFO. Right?? Loving every minute of it.
Quite a bit of the evidence is trump's own words plus the January 6th information which trump's legal team can easily get and start working on although if they were competent they would have already scoured this stuff. Also discovery now is electronic searches, not sitting in a room with boxes and boxes of papers. The lawyers know this but they are playing to rubes they can grift.
of course. I was just pointing out that the trump lawyer's response to pretty much everything has been whining about time. I suspect a trump lawyer does have an unusually difficult time learning the facts they are dealing with, given that trump lies about them all the time.
The facts have been readily available for at least two years, most even to the general public. And the Jan 6 Commission made that unavoidable. They know this already but just continue to whine. It’s is all they have.
wouldn't surprise me if DOJ had a search term in its indexing that says "things the public doesn't know yet." It would be a small, but helpful, timesaver.
At times, I begin to feel incredibly depressed about the state of things, but when Jay explains it, I walk away with a clearer mind and feel less anxious. Also I am amazed Kemp is doing the right thing. Thank goodness. Great column-I’m so glad I’m here. ✌️
Kemp has Oval Office aspirations, I think. But glad for this particular choice of action.
Great job, Jay! I'm so glad I signed up!
I’ve told this story elsewhere, but not here I don’t think:
About 30 years ago in the city I grew up in, two guys held up a store at gunpoint. The police arrived quickly and ordered them to drop their guns and surrender.
One of them did. He was hustled into handcuffs and into the back of a police car. The other guy took a shot at the police and ran off, dodging bullets and ducking into alleys and cutting through backyards.
For about 15 minutes, the first guy sat in the police car while they all looked for the other guy.
Finally they cornered him in an abandoned house a few blocks away. He decided to come out shooting, and killed a cop before the others shot and killed him.
The first guy, who embarked on a robbery of a store, surrendered when confronted and was sitting in the back of a police car, was charged with and convicted of the murder of the cop.
But we’re on Year 3 of trying to unravel the—to put it generously—thoughts of Donald Trump in an attempt to determine whether he had anything to do with Jan. 6.
This is a great example of the principle of “felony murder” where you can be charged with murder if someone dies in the course of the commission of a felony, even if you didn’t directly cause it. It’s somewhat different than RICO conspiracy, which requires a criminal organization, but it runs along some of the same ideas.
Regarding the Georgia rico charges and meadows, it's my understanding that someone has to be accused of 2 or more predicate acts (these have to be criminal) for rico to apply. These acts could overlap with overt acts towards conspiracy charges but they have to be distinct acts that are illegal.
I think Fani will show that meadows violated specific geoegia law (predicate) and made moves in furtherance of the conspiracy (overt).
Your analysis of this has highlighted, even if he didn't participate with overt acts, to be included in rico he had to have committed at least 2 predicate illegal acts. Sounds like the calls to raffensbergers office and organizing the fake electors, etc are enough to charge him with rico.
Agree with you up to a point. Meadows doesn’t have to have himself committed any of the predicate acts. It’s enough that someone within the RICO conspiracy did, and he joined the conspiracy. Does that make sense?
George,
You run a auto repair garage - legally. Then someone brings in a stolen car and asks you to change the and VIN (both illegal). Turns out that they use it to rob banks. This is considered a RICO case by the DA and you're included even though you never participated in the robberies.
Do I have this straight?
Rico in Georgia requires 2 or more predicate acts that are illegal. Conspiracy doesn't necessarily require predicate acts (illegal acts) only acts in furtherance of the conspiracy (overt acts).
In your scenario, yes the person erasing vins which is illegal could be wrapped up in rico.
The meidas touch network on YouTube with their legal analysts breaks this down much nicer than I do.
But suffice it to say, Georgia's rico requires 2 or more predicate acts to be included in rico.
I rely upon your information to stay informed and inspired. Thank you
Grateful for the reinforced rule of law position stated by Kemp, the live feed court decision by the judge, and for you! Sharing another example of our DOJ standing up for election integrity, these two also acted in furtherance of the lies told by Cult & Co (conspirators).
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/31/politics/guilty-plea-election-officials-threat/index.html