Let's be honest, if the republicans were not able to gerrymander districts in the states they control they would lose the house of representatives for a VERY long time. But, it would force them to actually come up with ideas, and compromise on legislation.
I am an NC native who returned home after 30+ years living in other states. Since 2011 when the R's took over the General Assembly, they have made war on any progress made towards a just and equal society. They have targeted voting rights, gerrymandered with surgical precision thanks to computer drawn maps, and attacked public education from Pre-K to higher education. The odious Republicans will never, NEVER give up one single ounce of the power they currently have. They grab power at every opportunity. NC is purple state, but you wouldn't know it from the district maps. My congressman voted to object to Biden's win. Ted Budd, elected senator in the last election is also a seditionist. How can a government function well if a number of the lawmakers, who are actually part of the government, want to tear it all down, leading to chaos?!
Absolutely correct. I, too, live in NC which is now considered a voter suppression state.
I’m old enough to to remember when the Dixiecrats came on strong with gerrymandering decades ago. It’s sometimes strange to see how ideology and public opinion and morality merge and split.
NC is the poster child for gerrymandering...and keeping the minority, e.g., the Repugs in power! While I’d like to think being holier than thou is how we operate as Dems maybe we just have to realize that we will never take over , even though we are the majority in this country , unless we figuratively “kill” the evil and undemocratic actions of the Repugs. I’m ready for fighting fire with fire until we correct the imbalance in this country....It’s the old bringing a butter knife to a fight when the opponent has an AK-47.
GET RID OF THE FILIBUSTER: pass laws for equal rights for all voters in this country and easy access to voting...Make laws federal and not in the hands of individual states. I think we really are no longer a United States of America....”United” being oxymoronic...we’re like 2 different countries!
May I also remind you that the beloved Constitution has many aspects of it which promote the power of the minority over the power of the majority, it sets us up as a country where the tail wags the dog...
THINK: An Electoral College system instead of a popular vote majority across the nation. No other democratic nation uses an electoral college...it is basically an archaic undemocratic system that keeps the minority in power.
THINK: (2) Senators from each state no matter the population of the state...the 750,000 people in Montana / republican state..have as much power as the 39.4 million people living in California/ democratic state....that’s simply bat shit Democracy! AND as populations are shifting to the urban areas of Blue states we will soon end up with 30% of the Senators representing 70% of the population & 70% of the Senators representing 30% of the population!!!!!..
THINK: the Supreme Court of America having justices for life!!!! Nobody should have any job for life...especially when the system of selecting Justices on the Supreme Court has been so easily manipulated by the Repugs/ THINK McConnell!!!
There is so much wrong with how our government operates ...and the Dems need to be aggressive until the Repugs become humans again...if they ever do!
Great wrap on NY's gerrymandering history for us non-New Yorkers out there.
Question I've never had time to research myself: Who picks these independent commissions when they finally happen? What (if anything) prevents these commissions from also becoming tainted by partisan politics? Because if there's a way to do it, Republicans will find a way. It's almost like they all take a MasterClass in cheating and subterfuge.
Groups like ALEC and the Heritage Foundation manufacture right-wing legislation to export to every state they can. There are a lot of similarities between what’s been going on in Wisconsin and NC over at least the past decade.
That's a great question, and the answer is "nothing."
I recall ProPublic did a long form on California's independent commission. ProPublica sought to answer why in the last 30-odd years California has been easily the most gerrymandered state in spite of having an independent commission redraw lines prior to the 2012 election. https://www.propublica.org/article/in-california-democrats-redistricting-strategy-paid-off
The stuff Democrats came up with was pretty incredible. They hired people to send in petitions from fake community organizations, and to increase their credibility signed the letters with racist and stereotypical names. In another instance they dressed some guy up to represent himself as a fake scientist who talked about an endangered species that doesn't exist, but whose made-up "range" ought to be included all in one district. In another instance they came up with a fake union that had its members speak at community events where they represented that there was a community of farm laborers, but neither the farms nor union existed.
Long story long, it didn't a do a ton to actually get incumbents out because ultimately only incumbents cared enough about the process... And it's simply not a "crime" to go to a bunch of events hosted by an independent commission and lie through your teeth.
The NY Democratic Party should absolutely take as much advantage of this as possible. We cannot unilaterally disarm. The Republicans are bullies. And bullies only understand one thing... force.
The endgame should be impartial redistricting maps everywhere as a matter of law. Otherwise it is not a democracy. But dems need to gerrymander for now till they can apply equal pressure to persuade reps to go along.
The interesting twist is that the NY state constitution now mandates an Independent Redistricting Commission to redraw Congressional districts with a view to quash gerrymandering, a noble quest, but if this IRC is deadlocked, all bets are off.
Fully sympathize with Jay's quandary regarding abolishing gerrymandering nationally, but won't happen as long as right-wing majorities reign on SCOTUS. So, no reforms until the Democrats actually gain the power that their numbers warrant, but they can't gain that power while being hamstrung by Repub gerrymandering and SCOTUS approval. Ergo, fight fire with fire, it's the American way, full stop.
Interesting article, thank you. While I'm very reticent to use such tactics, there's just too much at stake. Fight fire with fire, so to speak. At least Democrats are thinking about the morality when the Republicans won't hesitate to use every dirty trick they can. I totally agree with Color Me Skeptical. Fix it after. It may be regrettable, but it's pragmatic and necessary and, ultimately, for the greater good.
I am with you on pragmatism. Part of the problem in this country is that people don't actually WANT solutions, pragmatic or otherwise. They prefer to be outraged. Outrage gives a simulacrum of energy that just listening to boring old truths lack. The economy is doing better? Ho hum. I've got a job already. Two penguin dads will corrupt the purity of our children? Immigrants are out to kill you? Total energy.
This is TV bolstered by internet. But the mindset is mainly TV, I think. The internet just gives you lots of approval for your feeling of outrage. Tucker Carlson exemplifies this rousting out of energy. And for too many people the outrage has to feel PERSONAL. Too much incarceration of blacks? Not my problem. The purity of my kids or grandkids? Deeply mine.
The problem of course with outrage based on lies is that nothing actually will fix it. Deep down, parents know that the purity of their kids is threatened on many fronts, and banning a book will hardly do anything. So they look for the authoritarian promise that "only I can fix it." Imaginary outrage responds only to imaginary fixing.
I recall that in the teens, Ohio voters voted in an amendment to prohibit gerrymandering. The state leadership, being Republicans, said that they were going to wait 15 years before implementing the constitutional amendment. Everybody said okay and dropped this amendment out of every memory and nothing has been done. I can't wait to see what garble bargle they're going to put forward next year.
For what it's worth, it's expected to be back on the ballot in '24. I think with the outrage towards Republicans, particularly here in Ohio, it should be another shellacking, and maybe THIS TIME we'll see real change. Who knows, maybe even the end of Gym Jordan!!
The war by the RFP (rethuglican fascist party) already has begun and they started it. When Hitler took power, there was no shooting. The parallels to current events all are there. In the original Star Trek, there was an episode titled Patterns of Force, where Kirk and Spock encounter a planet mirrored upon Nazi Germany. It has proved to be prescient, that this can occur again and again. Even the adoring media (granted today by Fox Not-news) mirrors Germany back then. I struggle seeing how the high ground can win today, nor more than in the 1930s. Arguments were made on the world stage back then on the demerits and merits of fascism. Meanwhile, Hitler consolidated power. The United States has survived dishonest politicians. That’s not what we have here today. Democracy is in a fight for survival. I fear that a win by the RFP is a one way door that will take a generation to undo.
Want to reduce the power of any one legislator? Expand the House. Nothing in the Constitution sets the size. It has been at 435 since 1913 despite the growth in the population. Smaller congressional districts with representatives more responsive their constituent needs rather than what will play well on television would likely be the result. On top of that, it is less likely that we'd be held hostage by 2-3 members of the extreme rightwing.
Exactly right. The static size of the house is another case of unbalanced power given to the small states (similar to the odious electoral college). The result is anti-democratic where rural states get vastly more representation per capita than the average.
I wouldn't mind having a congressional representative who actually lived in the district! Maga-Congressman Williams promised to move and didn't - citing potential redistricting as the reason. I'd like it settled. Better yet, I'd like to be in a district in which my point of view was heard.
Sounds shocking, indeed, but Tommy Tuberville doesn’t live in Alabama. His primary residence is in Florida, yet he represents a district in Alabama. I personally want to know how this is possible.
Mark, this is no joke. I actually found out a couple of months ago during his military standoff idiocy. It was in one of the regular Substack newsletters I read (cannot recall at this moment). He may have a second home in Alabama (not sure), but his primary residence is in Florida most of the time, except when he is in DC. Aren't you glad we are Coloradans? I count my blessings every day that I live in a state where sanity prevails most of the time. And compared to some other states right on our borders, it's heaven.
We should definitely press advantage, to a point; we don't want to subsequently find ourselves balanced tenuously on a shifting and shifty house of cards, even those rendered sodden by GOP tears.
That’s a route that the Dems should follow more often. Not the lawlessness, but making it clear to the GOP that their tactics are available to be used against them. “Swords cut both ways, me hearties!”
GOP, do you really want to support Trump’s notion that an impeached-not-convicted President has immunity forevermore? Then by all means proceed with your doomed-to-fail impeachment of Biden.
Let's be honest, if the republicans were not able to gerrymander districts in the states they control they would lose the house of representatives for a VERY long time. But, it would force them to actually come up with ideas, and compromise on legislation.
Hmmm.... “come up with ideas, and compromise on legislation”. What an interesting concept! 😉
I am an NC native who returned home after 30+ years living in other states. Since 2011 when the R's took over the General Assembly, they have made war on any progress made towards a just and equal society. They have targeted voting rights, gerrymandered with surgical precision thanks to computer drawn maps, and attacked public education from Pre-K to higher education. The odious Republicans will never, NEVER give up one single ounce of the power they currently have. They grab power at every opportunity. NC is purple state, but you wouldn't know it from the district maps. My congressman voted to object to Biden's win. Ted Budd, elected senator in the last election is also a seditionist. How can a government function well if a number of the lawmakers, who are actually part of the government, want to tear it all down, leading to chaos?!
Absolutely correct. I, too, live in NC which is now considered a voter suppression state.
I’m old enough to to remember when the Dixiecrats came on strong with gerrymandering decades ago. It’s sometimes strange to see how ideology and public opinion and morality merge and split.
NC is the poster child for gerrymandering...and keeping the minority, e.g., the Repugs in power! While I’d like to think being holier than thou is how we operate as Dems maybe we just have to realize that we will never take over , even though we are the majority in this country , unless we figuratively “kill” the evil and undemocratic actions of the Repugs. I’m ready for fighting fire with fire until we correct the imbalance in this country....It’s the old bringing a butter knife to a fight when the opponent has an AK-47.
GET RID OF THE FILIBUSTER: pass laws for equal rights for all voters in this country and easy access to voting...Make laws federal and not in the hands of individual states. I think we really are no longer a United States of America....”United” being oxymoronic...we’re like 2 different countries!
May I also remind you that the beloved Constitution has many aspects of it which promote the power of the minority over the power of the majority, it sets us up as a country where the tail wags the dog...
THINK: An Electoral College system instead of a popular vote majority across the nation. No other democratic nation uses an electoral college...it is basically an archaic undemocratic system that keeps the minority in power.
THINK: (2) Senators from each state no matter the population of the state...the 750,000 people in Montana / republican state..have as much power as the 39.4 million people living in California/ democratic state....that’s simply bat shit Democracy! AND as populations are shifting to the urban areas of Blue states we will soon end up with 30% of the Senators representing 70% of the population & 70% of the Senators representing 30% of the population!!!!!..
THINK: the Supreme Court of America having justices for life!!!! Nobody should have any job for life...especially when the system of selecting Justices on the Supreme Court has been so easily manipulated by the Repugs/ THINK McConnell!!!
There is so much wrong with how our government operates ...and the Dems need to be aggressive until the Repugs become humans again...if they ever do!
Great wrap on NY's gerrymandering history for us non-New Yorkers out there.
Question I've never had time to research myself: Who picks these independent commissions when they finally happen? What (if anything) prevents these commissions from also becoming tainted by partisan politics? Because if there's a way to do it, Republicans will find a way. It's almost like they all take a MasterClass in cheating and subterfuge.
Groups like ALEC and the Heritage Foundation manufacture right-wing legislation to export to every state they can. There are a lot of similarities between what’s been going on in Wisconsin and NC over at least the past decade.
That's a great question, and the answer is "nothing."
I recall ProPublic did a long form on California's independent commission. ProPublica sought to answer why in the last 30-odd years California has been easily the most gerrymandered state in spite of having an independent commission redraw lines prior to the 2012 election. https://www.propublica.org/article/in-california-democrats-redistricting-strategy-paid-off
(edit, note Princeton's gerrymandering project is yet again rating CA's Congressional map's competitiveness an F https://gerrymander.princeton.edu/redistricting-report-card/?planId=recTjjqp3oFhx8XDU)
The stuff Democrats came up with was pretty incredible. They hired people to send in petitions from fake community organizations, and to increase their credibility signed the letters with racist and stereotypical names. In another instance they dressed some guy up to represent himself as a fake scientist who talked about an endangered species that doesn't exist, but whose made-up "range" ought to be included all in one district. In another instance they came up with a fake union that had its members speak at community events where they represented that there was a community of farm laborers, but neither the farms nor union existed.
Long story long, it didn't a do a ton to actually get incumbents out because ultimately only incumbents cared enough about the process... And it's simply not a "crime" to go to a bunch of events hosted by an independent commission and lie through your teeth.
I was thinking the same thing. Enough money seems to be available to buy the power they so desperately want.
The NY Democratic Party should absolutely take as much advantage of this as possible. We cannot unilaterally disarm. The Republicans are bullies. And bullies only understand one thing... force.
The endgame should be impartial redistricting maps everywhere as a matter of law. Otherwise it is not a democracy. But dems need to gerrymander for now till they can apply equal pressure to persuade reps to go along.
The interesting twist is that the NY state constitution now mandates an Independent Redistricting Commission to redraw Congressional districts with a view to quash gerrymandering, a noble quest, but if this IRC is deadlocked, all bets are off.
Fully sympathize with Jay's quandary regarding abolishing gerrymandering nationally, but won't happen as long as right-wing majorities reign on SCOTUS. So, no reforms until the Democrats actually gain the power that their numbers warrant, but they can't gain that power while being hamstrung by Repub gerrymandering and SCOTUS approval. Ergo, fight fire with fire, it's the American way, full stop.
Interesting article, thank you. While I'm very reticent to use such tactics, there's just too much at stake. Fight fire with fire, so to speak. At least Democrats are thinking about the morality when the Republicans won't hesitate to use every dirty trick they can. I totally agree with Color Me Skeptical. Fix it after. It may be regrettable, but it's pragmatic and necessary and, ultimately, for the greater good.
It does not help that the New York Democratic Party Leader did nothing to help Democratic candidates. He really has to go.
I am with you on pragmatism. Part of the problem in this country is that people don't actually WANT solutions, pragmatic or otherwise. They prefer to be outraged. Outrage gives a simulacrum of energy that just listening to boring old truths lack. The economy is doing better? Ho hum. I've got a job already. Two penguin dads will corrupt the purity of our children? Immigrants are out to kill you? Total energy.
This is TV bolstered by internet. But the mindset is mainly TV, I think. The internet just gives you lots of approval for your feeling of outrage. Tucker Carlson exemplifies this rousting out of energy. And for too many people the outrage has to feel PERSONAL. Too much incarceration of blacks? Not my problem. The purity of my kids or grandkids? Deeply mine.
The problem of course with outrage based on lies is that nothing actually will fix it. Deep down, parents know that the purity of their kids is threatened on many fronts, and banning a book will hardly do anything. So they look for the authoritarian promise that "only I can fix it." Imaginary outrage responds only to imaginary fixing.
Thank you, Jay. Most especially for your closing
statement.
Not one step back! We must
retake the House and maintain the Senate majority.
I recall that in the teens, Ohio voters voted in an amendment to prohibit gerrymandering. The state leadership, being Republicans, said that they were going to wait 15 years before implementing the constitutional amendment. Everybody said okay and dropped this amendment out of every memory and nothing has been done. I can't wait to see what garble bargle they're going to put forward next year.
Yes I recall this. No one followed up to the best of my knowledge. Apparently we didn’t care enough until now.
For what it's worth, it's expected to be back on the ballot in '24. I think with the outrage towards Republicans, particularly here in Ohio, it should be another shellacking, and maybe THIS TIME we'll see real change. Who knows, maybe even the end of Gym Jordan!!
Fight fire with fire
I feel the same. Let them get a taste of their own medicine. But more so, I think Jay is right so it can’t be overruled.
The war by the RFP (rethuglican fascist party) already has begun and they started it. When Hitler took power, there was no shooting. The parallels to current events all are there. In the original Star Trek, there was an episode titled Patterns of Force, where Kirk and Spock encounter a planet mirrored upon Nazi Germany. It has proved to be prescient, that this can occur again and again. Even the adoring media (granted today by Fox Not-news) mirrors Germany back then. I struggle seeing how the high ground can win today, nor more than in the 1930s. Arguments were made on the world stage back then on the demerits and merits of fascism. Meanwhile, Hitler consolidated power. The United States has survived dishonest politicians. That’s not what we have here today. Democracy is in a fight for survival. I fear that a win by the RFP is a one way door that will take a generation to undo.
Want to reduce the power of any one legislator? Expand the House. Nothing in the Constitution sets the size. It has been at 435 since 1913 despite the growth in the population. Smaller congressional districts with representatives more responsive their constituent needs rather than what will play well on television would likely be the result. On top of that, it is less likely that we'd be held hostage by 2-3 members of the extreme rightwing.
Exactly right. The static size of the house is another case of unbalanced power given to the small states (similar to the odious electoral college). The result is anti-democratic where rural states get vastly more representation per capita than the average.
I wouldn't mind having a congressional representative who actually lived in the district! Maga-Congressman Williams promised to move and didn't - citing potential redistricting as the reason. I'd like it settled. Better yet, I'd like to be in a district in which my point of view was heard.
What?!
Sounds shocking, indeed, but Tommy Tuberville doesn’t live in Alabama. His primary residence is in Florida, yet he represents a district in Alabama. I personally want to know how this is possible.
What?! X2
Mark, this is no joke. I actually found out a couple of months ago during his military standoff idiocy. It was in one of the regular Substack newsletters I read (cannot recall at this moment). He may have a second home in Alabama (not sure), but his primary residence is in Florida most of the time, except when he is in DC. Aren't you glad we are Coloradans? I count my blessings every day that I live in a state where sanity prevails most of the time. And compared to some other states right on our borders, it's heaven.
We should definitely press advantage, to a point; we don't want to subsequently find ourselves balanced tenuously on a shifting and shifty house of cards, even those rendered sodden by GOP tears.
“using the GOPs own tactics”
That’s a route that the Dems should follow more often. Not the lawlessness, but making it clear to the GOP that their tactics are available to be used against them. “Swords cut both ways, me hearties!”
GOP, do you really want to support Trump’s notion that an impeached-not-convicted President has immunity forevermore? Then by all means proceed with your doomed-to-fail impeachment of Biden.
Just one example.