Regarding Pence's pulling out (so to speak), Two comments stand out: 1) "Well, that frees up about seven votes." and 2) "He should have to carry it to full term!"
The wording of Section 3 of Amendment 14 is clear:
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold ANY OFFICE...who, having previously taken an oath..,as an officer of the United States...to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have...given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
So, for the originalists in SCOTUS, the wording makes it clear that Trump shall not hold any office in the government, state or Federal.
But, given the current court’s pattern of ignoring precedent when it suits them, I wouldn’t be surprised if they decided to throw out section 3 with a claim that it only held for Confederates from the Civil War.
Why do you think the GOPers of the house are fighting the investigations so much? Because they know they will be next. Dominoes falling in a perfect line
As someone who lives in Colorado (where mail in voting is working very well now) I can only hope that we are the first state to deny trump a place on the ballot! It would be lovely if it started an avalanche of other states to follow our lead. We will see what speaker Johnson has in store—I find his smug assurance that god is somehow responsible for his election to speaker quite annoying. The hubris of this man! Gah.
Politifact and CNN have articles about the significant lies told by Pence as VP. Pence lied about Covid, immigration, 2020 "voter fraud", abortion, voting rights, etc. He's not a profligate liar like Trump, but that doesn't make him an honest broker. The idea that Pence is NOT a liar is...puzzling. He's not trusted by any faction of the GOP...the base doesn't trust him because he's now telling the truth about issues he previously lied about. The "non-MAGA" Republicans don't trust him because of his earlier lies.
Likely, Pence will qualify most of his testimony (eg, "I was in the room when Trump was told he lost the election, but I don't know what was in his heart").
I just want to avoid normalizing Pence because he complied with the law on one day. It sadly took courage, but he should be remembered for the litany of lies he acquiesced in and enabled for 4 years.
That would be perjury. As I’m sure you know, spouting lies on faux news is one thing. Lying under oath is another. For example, what Giuliani says on tv is NOT the same story in court under oath.
His Covid lies led to the deaths of untold tens of thousands. His lies about nonexistent voter fraud led to the decimation of democracy. I really don't care what his motivation was.
I have no love for Pence. Do you think if he was the President instead of Trump that he would have handled Covid the same and told those same lies that led to the deaths of so many? I don’t think he would have. He’d have listened to Fauci.
I've read about Pence's response during the AIDs epidemic in Indiana. His extreme religious views delayed action that resulted in unnecessary deaths.
No one is as prolific a liar as Trump, but Pence was the Vice President of the United States. He was uniquely qualified to tell the truth, but he chose ambition over lives every time he had a choice.
It doesn't matter what Pence 'might have done' as president, what matters is what he actually did when he had a choice and a platform.
Oh, Tim Scott is fading in the polls? Gee, it’s almost as if the Republicans hid behind him so they could say “See? We’re not racists” for a couple of months and our wealthy political media stars bought it. That supposedly “sunny” personality (LOL) wasn’t really worth much to the Trump Party.
I think January 6th is the last time Mike Pence will stand up for the American People. I don't see him taking off the gloves in his testimony against Donald Trump.
I really don’t know what he will do. All indications are that he gave truthful testimony under oath. The reason for that is, he had those contemporaneous notes. Hard for him to dispute what they said.
Plus there is the significant risk of perjury. SP Smith likely has cross-current receipts for virtually everything. And he has the GA Flippers to add to his cache, right, Jay?
I'm not sure he would have the choice -- he will be under oath. And while I don't have a lot of regard for him, I do think if he has to put his hand on a Bible, he might just honor that oath.
On the other hand, Pence no longer has any reason to continue trying to woo the MAGA base, since it's clear the MAGAts will never forgive him. Thus one would think that he'd still be fairly angry at Trump's effort to throw him to the wolves who were in full cry for a hanging to round out the day. I sure as hell would be.
Mike Pence was never a seeker of the spotlight like so many others were, was he? He no doubt regularly prays to keep himself free of anger and vengeance. He isn’t a liar. I am one of the few who believes he deserves credit for refusing to succumb to the intense pressure and scrutiny ahead of January 6 and the threats and jeering afterward. He still has his word, an asset of the highest importance. Who else can claim that? He’s an odd bird but he’s ok with me and I wish him well. I hope he’s happy being out of the race. I would be jumping for joy.
From what I’ve observed about Pence, and the deductions I’ve come to is that he has made his faith primary. So I think he gains solace from his prayers. I believe being a politician in these times exes out your ability to tell the whole truth. Or even a fraction of the truth. He’s in the wrong line of work in my view. Nobody was buying the contradiction who is Mike Pence. Also, to my mind you can’t be anti-gay and a true man of God at the same time. Another huge contradiction.
"Mike Pence was never a seeker of the spotlight like so many others were, was he?" Uh - he very much wanted to be President. He has never made a secret of that ambition. And there is no brighter spotlight.
I’ve been a coward, have you? Looks like Donald is surrounded by nothing but cowards. Why single Pence out? He comes off meek. Maybe he’ll inherit the Earth.
I’ve been a coward, but I’ve not been 1st in line to the US Presidency, nor have I witnessed a coup unfolding before my eyes, and then continued to support the instigator.
Jay, what's your take on Johnson? His talking sense and reality with Hannity puts the Pro-Putin wing of the GOP, including himself and Trump, in a pickle. On the other hand, his insistence on splitting the funding could be aimed at nothing other than allowing aid to Ukraine to be tanked. What does that add up to?
I think he is dissembling and keeping his options open. He’s too green in the position to make any big moves at this time, other than to try and split the Ukrainian funding off. But what happens if the WH and Senate say no dice? Will he insist or find a way out?
If the D's retake the House in the 11/24 election, that won't happen. The next session of Congress begins on 1/3/24, at which time the Speaker of the House will be elected. Johnson's "term" ends at that time.
That was my thought too. Talk “nice”, make other side believe you are reasonable, then once the aid package is split, drop the hammer. I don’t trust him.
Among the many serious concerns about Mike Johnson as Speaker of the House of Representatives, perhaps the overriding concern to my mind is what might happen if he is still Speaker on January 6, 2025, when it comes time to certify the 2024 election, an election that has a strong possibility of reelecting President Biden. Johnson is an election denier and worked diligently to coordinate the Electoral College objections on Jan. 6, 2021. Charles Coleman, in for Ali Velshi, suggested this very concern along with the reality that Johnson is now 2nd in line for the presidency should anything happen to Biden and Harris.
The Congressional Term starts on Jan 3 every odd year, so hopefully by then there will be a D majority again. That said, if there was an R majority again, we'd have a bigger problem than worry about Mike Johnson. The House may well not *have* a speaker between Jan 3 and Jan 20, when the President is supposed to be inaugurated.
Didn't Congress pass a law fixing what Trump tried to get Pence to do? I could be very wrong about this, with all the legal cruft in the air regarding everything.
You are correct, I finally found it. The Electoral Count Act was overhauled and passed at the 11th hour of 2022 as part of the annual spending bill. It clarifies that the VP's role is purely ceremonial, it requires one fifth of each chamber to object to a state's electors rather than the previous 1 member of each, it specifies who is responsible for submitting the certificate for a state so rogue groups can't submit their own, and it provides for an expedited judicial review for certain claims about the electors. It did not include anything to protect against voter suppression or other state actions aimed at thwarting the will of the voters, but it did shut down every insane perceived loophole Trump used in his coup attempt
This was just to clarify the ceremonial role of the VP. Can't happen in 2025 because Kamala will be the VP, and the GOP wouldn't fight it for that same reason.
That said, the objects and delays, sans the coup attempt, could be done again, just out of spite.
Well, the vice president certifying the election will be Kamala. And it's very possible that Hakeem Jeffries will be speaker in 2024 when this issue comes up. I see all this ultra-right wing stuff as backfiring on these over-reachers.
The Electoral Count Act overhaul actually passed the House in September of 2022, and became law as part of the 12/23/2022 annual spending bill. It just clarifies the existing laws and makes it much more difficult for idiots to screw with the process (1/5 of each chamber to object rather than just one malcontent, and serious constitutional basis rather than "I just want to screw with the process")
Seems to me it went through with the Inflation Reduction Act that they powered through. Trump was saying that passing that was proof that what he did was legal
All it did was make it 100% clear that the VP cannot name whoever they want as POTUS, all they do is preside over the counting of the confirmed votes. That doesn't change the law, it just means that if someone tries a coup again like Trump did, the courts won't have to rule on the meaning.
Dean is running as a Dem, so he won't siphon votes away. He'll just lose the primaries, badly.
A couple of people have plans to run as Independents, and despite what they say their reasons are, it is to siphon votes away from Biden. They know that they can't win, they know that hard core MAGAts can't be dissuaded in their overlord, but that a small percentage of Dems might.) Kennedy, running on his family name to confuse people is one. Manchin had said he was thinking about it, but I don't know if he is going through with it. Each one has a chance to steal a fraction of a percent, but that can kill you in a close race.
It would be nice to see ranked choice required for all national elections. Then these weasels would be made irrelevant, because any votes they unscrupulously siphoned off would simply fall back to the person they siphoned them from. It wouldn't be worth the huge costs, so no one would do it.
Rep. Dean Phillips will have to get through the Democratic primaries first. He's running as a Democrat. It seems questionable that he would be able to run a successful campaign as an Independent if he fails (likely) to prevail in the Primaries.
Regarding Pence's pulling out (so to speak), Two comments stand out: 1) "Well, that frees up about seven votes." and 2) "He should have to carry it to full term!"
Yup! Give birth to that dead baby.
Oho...that was a couple of good ones! Thanks for the laugh!
I never thought this phrase would be current in American political discourse, ever: “pro-Russian members within the House GOP.”
This is so shocking and I so agree.
My thought exactly!!!
I hope for funding for Ukraine and Israel! Also, May Trump be deemed an insurrectionist!
Four years as Trump’s toady cancel Pence’s single act of honor.
It wasn't even an act of honor. He was just meeting the basic functional requirements of his job at that point.
Given the circumstances, I'm giving Pence benefit of the doubt.
At least he grew a conscience for it, however short lived it was.
Yes just like Romney let’s hope they feel that sting of shame forever.
The wording of Section 3 of Amendment 14 is clear:
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold ANY OFFICE...who, having previously taken an oath..,as an officer of the United States...to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have...given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
So, for the originalists in SCOTUS, the wording makes it clear that Trump shall not hold any office in the government, state or Federal.
But, given the current court’s pattern of ignoring precedent when it suits them, I wouldn’t be surprised if they decided to throw out section 3 with a claim that it only held for Confederates from the Civil War.
Why do you think the GOPers of the house are fighting the investigations so much? Because they know they will be next. Dominoes falling in a perfect line
But Jay thinks it’s too political for DOJ. We can always hope though.
Too political for the DOJ? Then what’s the point of having a DOJ or constitution?
As someone who lives in Colorado (where mail in voting is working very well now) I can only hope that we are the first state to deny trump a place on the ballot! It would be lovely if it started an avalanche of other states to follow our lead. We will see what speaker Johnson has in store—I find his smug assurance that god is somehow responsible for his election to speaker quite annoying. The hubris of this man! Gah.
Go Colorado!! Now get Boebert out with a liberal!!
I'm pretty sure her goose was cooked at the Beetlejuice show! What a dumb (l)ass she is.
The word "Gah" is much more aligned with all things Republican than the word "God" is. :-)
Go, Colorado!
We here in Michigan are watching y'all closely - we've got one going too. Give us a lovely precedent, please!
Pro Russia members of Congress, is a heartbreaking, infuriating statement.
Yes!!!!
Politifact and CNN have articles about the significant lies told by Pence as VP. Pence lied about Covid, immigration, 2020 "voter fraud", abortion, voting rights, etc. He's not a profligate liar like Trump, but that doesn't make him an honest broker. The idea that Pence is NOT a liar is...puzzling. He's not trusted by any faction of the GOP...the base doesn't trust him because he's now telling the truth about issues he previously lied about. The "non-MAGA" Republicans don't trust him because of his earlier lies.
I suppose the right question is then, will he lie under oath?
Completely agree...
Likely, Pence will qualify most of his testimony (eg, "I was in the room when Trump was told he lost the election, but I don't know what was in his heart").
I just want to avoid normalizing Pence because he complied with the law on one day. It sadly took courage, but he should be remembered for the litany of lies he acquiesced in and enabled for 4 years.
That would be perjury. As I’m sure you know, spouting lies on faux news is one thing. Lying under oath is another. For example, what Giuliani says on tv is NOT the same story in court under oath.
That list of lies might as well be the GOP's platform.
That’s part of the problem, separating lies from official policy.
Pence’s lies we’re thought out lies that he was required to voice OR ELSE. Maybe he even believed some of them.
In other words, deceiving people is not his angle.
His Covid lies led to the deaths of untold tens of thousands. His lies about nonexistent voter fraud led to the decimation of democracy. I really don't care what his motivation was.
Oops, hw. My reply to you is down the list. I forgot to press “reply”.
I have no love for Pence. Do you think if he was the President instead of Trump that he would have handled Covid the same and told those same lies that led to the deaths of so many? I don’t think he would have. He’d have listened to Fauci.
I've read about Pence's response during the AIDs epidemic in Indiana. His extreme religious views delayed action that resulted in unnecessary deaths.
No one is as prolific a liar as Trump, but Pence was the Vice President of the United States. He was uniquely qualified to tell the truth, but he chose ambition over lives every time he had a choice.
It doesn't matter what Pence 'might have done' as president, what matters is what he actually did when he had a choice and a platform.
You are changing my mind about Pence. I now see more clearly that side of him that is a quiet menace/lout kind of man.
Trumps cult would never have come into being had Pence been president. A guy like Pence was in no position to tell his own truth under Trump.
People forget that the Republicans believe that the end justifies the means to get what you want.
Oh, Tim Scott is fading in the polls? Gee, it’s almost as if the Republicans hid behind him so they could say “See? We’re not racists” for a couple of months and our wealthy political media stars bought it. That supposedly “sunny” personality (LOL) wasn’t really worth much to the Trump Party.
The 🪰 is seeking a new wing man.
😂😂😂
I think January 6th is the last time Mike Pence will stand up for the American People. I don't see him taking off the gloves in his testimony against Donald Trump.
I really don’t know what he will do. All indications are that he gave truthful testimony under oath. The reason for that is, he had those contemporaneous notes. Hard for him to dispute what they said.
I'm sure he will tell the truth as he believes it to be, and will leave out as much as they allow.
Plus there is the significant risk of perjury. SP Smith likely has cross-current receipts for virtually everything. And he has the GA Flippers to add to his cache, right, Jay?
That’s good news.
I'm not sure he would have the choice -- he will be under oath. And while I don't have a lot of regard for him, I do think if he has to put his hand on a Bible, he might just honor that oath.
I have concerns about their interpretation of the Bible.
I have concerns for the Bible itself. It may just burst into flames when he puts his hand on it.
On the other hand, Pence no longer has any reason to continue trying to woo the MAGA base, since it's clear the MAGAts will never forgive him. Thus one would think that he'd still be fairly angry at Trump's effort to throw him to the wolves who were in full cry for a hanging to round out the day. I sure as hell would be.
Mike Pence was never a seeker of the spotlight like so many others were, was he? He no doubt regularly prays to keep himself free of anger and vengeance. He isn’t a liar. I am one of the few who believes he deserves credit for refusing to succumb to the intense pressure and scrutiny ahead of January 6 and the threats and jeering afterward. He still has his word, an asset of the highest importance. Who else can claim that? He’s an odd bird but he’s ok with me and I wish him well. I hope he’s happy being out of the race. I would be jumping for joy.
I have often wondered if he actually got an answer to a prayer and that scared the beejezus out of him. Amazing Grace?
From what I’ve observed about Pence, and the deductions I’ve come to is that he has made his faith primary. So I think he gains solace from his prayers. I believe being a politician in these times exes out your ability to tell the whole truth. Or even a fraction of the truth. He’s in the wrong line of work in my view. Nobody was buying the contradiction who is Mike Pence. Also, to my mind you can’t be anti-gay and a true man of God at the same time. Another huge contradiction.
I think our Founding Fathers saw this potential; making every effort to separate church from state. Too bad it wasn’t written into the constitution.
Yes
Not according to Politico and CNN.
I don’t pretend to be right. Just one person’s take is all my comments are.
"Mike Pence was never a seeker of the spotlight like so many others were, was he?" Uh - he very much wanted to be President. He has never made a secret of that ambition. And there is no brighter spotlight.
That is true. You’re right. I meant that he is not a show-off like his boss and should have said so.
There will be a 2028, and Donald Trump's base isn't going anywhere. Mike Pence might be angry privately, but he will never speak it.
"There will be a 2028"
I like your optimism.
I'm looking at 70 in a couple of months. The unstoppable march of time becomes more real every day.
I hope your birthday is a great one, celebrated with a few dozen successful court cases against the orange thing.
Let's hope his outfits will soon match his hair color.
From your keyboard to God's inbox.
I’d be mad as hell too but remember the Bible says to turn the other cheek. There’s also something about forgiving 70 times 70.
I was thinking though is he smart enough to see the opportunity to bring him down through the courts now?
Even if he sees it, would he take it?
I’m so glad to see the unions getting some significant gains.
Pence may not be a liar, but he is certainly a coward.
I’ve been a coward, have you? Looks like Donald is surrounded by nothing but cowards. Why single Pence out? He comes off meek. Maybe he’ll inherit the Earth.
I’ve been a coward, but I’ve not been 1st in line to the US Presidency, nor have I witnessed a coup unfolding before my eyes, and then continued to support the instigator.
Good point.
Interesting perspective on Pence!
Thank you & happy weekend.
Thank you one and all and Peace
Jay, what's your take on Johnson? His talking sense and reality with Hannity puts the Pro-Putin wing of the GOP, including himself and Trump, in a pickle. On the other hand, his insistence on splitting the funding could be aimed at nothing other than allowing aid to Ukraine to be tanked. What does that add up to?
I think he is dissembling and keeping his options open. He’s too green in the position to make any big moves at this time, other than to try and split the Ukrainian funding off. But what happens if the WH and Senate say no dice? Will he insist or find a way out?
What happens if this election denier is still the Speaker of the House on Jan. 6, 2025?
If the D's retake the House in the 11/24 election, that won't happen. The next session of Congress begins on 1/3/24, at which time the Speaker of the House will be elected. Johnson's "term" ends at that time.
That was my thought too. Talk “nice”, make other side believe you are reasonable, then once the aid package is split, drop the hammer. I don’t trust him.
It’s be nice if he goes rogue.
Among the many serious concerns about Mike Johnson as Speaker of the House of Representatives, perhaps the overriding concern to my mind is what might happen if he is still Speaker on January 6, 2025, when it comes time to certify the 2024 election, an election that has a strong possibility of reelecting President Biden. Johnson is an election denier and worked diligently to coordinate the Electoral College objections on Jan. 6, 2021. Charles Coleman, in for Ali Velshi, suggested this very concern along with the reality that Johnson is now 2nd in line for the presidency should anything happen to Biden and Harris.
Also: https://www.msnbc.com/velshi Choose "Surrogate for Trump: Rep. Dean sounds alarm on new speaker"
The Congressional Term starts on Jan 3 every odd year, so hopefully by then there will be a D majority again. That said, if there was an R majority again, we'd have a bigger problem than worry about Mike Johnson. The House may well not *have* a speaker between Jan 3 and Jan 20, when the President is supposed to be inaugurated.
Didn't Congress pass a law fixing what Trump tried to get Pence to do? I could be very wrong about this, with all the legal cruft in the air regarding everything.
You are correct, I finally found it. The Electoral Count Act was overhauled and passed at the 11th hour of 2022 as part of the annual spending bill. It clarifies that the VP's role is purely ceremonial, it requires one fifth of each chamber to object to a state's electors rather than the previous 1 member of each, it specifies who is responsible for submitting the certificate for a state so rogue groups can't submit their own, and it provides for an expedited judicial review for certain claims about the electors. It did not include anything to protect against voter suppression or other state actions aimed at thwarting the will of the voters, but it did shut down every insane perceived loophole Trump used in his coup attempt
Thank you for digging that up! I thought so! That's a pretty big step I think, but of course a lot more to be done. Thanks again.
Are you talking about the time period before the 2020 election? If they did, it didn't survive the Senate.
This was just to clarify the ceremonial role of the VP. Can't happen in 2025 because Kamala will be the VP, and the GOP wouldn't fight it for that same reason.
That said, the objects and delays, sans the coup attempt, could be done again, just out of spite.
Probably, yes. Thanks.
We had McConnell from 2020 to 2022, it probably didn't even come up for a vote.
Well, the vice president certifying the election will be Kamala. And it's very possible that Hakeem Jeffries will be speaker in 2024 when this issue comes up. I see all this ultra-right wing stuff as backfiring on these over-reachers.
The Electoral Count Act overhaul actually passed the House in September of 2022, and became law as part of the 12/23/2022 annual spending bill. It just clarifies the existing laws and makes it much more difficult for idiots to screw with the process (1/5 of each chamber to object rather than just one malcontent, and serious constitutional basis rather than "I just want to screw with the process")
Seems to me it went through with the Inflation Reduction Act that they powered through. Trump was saying that passing that was proof that what he did was legal
Why don't they put it to use?
All it did was make it 100% clear that the VP cannot name whoever they want as POTUS, all they do is preside over the counting of the confirmed votes. That doesn't change the law, it just means that if someone tries a coup again like Trump did, the courts won't have to rule on the meaning.
The same Representative Dean who is now running to siphon support away from Biden?
Dean is running as a Dem, so he won't siphon votes away. He'll just lose the primaries, badly.
A couple of people have plans to run as Independents, and despite what they say their reasons are, it is to siphon votes away from Biden. They know that they can't win, they know that hard core MAGAts can't be dissuaded in their overlord, but that a small percentage of Dems might.) Kennedy, running on his family name to confuse people is one. Manchin had said he was thinking about it, but I don't know if he is going through with it. Each one has a chance to steal a fraction of a percent, but that can kill you in a close race.
It would be nice to see ranked choice required for all national elections. Then these weasels would be made irrelevant, because any votes they unscrupulously siphoned off would simply fall back to the person they siphoned them from. It wouldn't be worth the huge costs, so no one would do it.
Rep. Dean Phillips will have to get through the Democratic primaries first. He's running as a Democrat. It seems questionable that he would be able to run a successful campaign as an Independent if he fails (likely) to prevail in the Primaries.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/26/us/politics/dean-phillips-biden-primary.html?unlocked_article_code=1.6kw.dkgs.S5mMrza8fcnn&smid=url-share