Back in December of 2020, when I first heard on the news about the GOP plan to have “alternate slates” of electors at the ready in the contested battleground states, I remember thinking, “Good luck with that.”
It’s a very interesting questions, isn’t it. Are they cooperating? Is the government planning something else with them? Are they just lucky? We will learn.
Before the election each party chooses a slate of electors. A person appears to vote for a candidate, but in reality is voting for the candidate's slate of electors. This official slate is the only one authorized to cast votes in the electoral college. Fake electors have no such authority. Claiming a fake elector is "contingent" upon the candidate winning a court case is absurd, because in the event the court found fraud and overturned the initial result, then the officially chosen electors would be the people who would cast the electoral votes. There is no legitimate scenario where the fake electors have any authority or purpose. They are nothing but imposters and useful idiots for criminals trying to steal the election. It's really that simple.
True, however what Cheseboro did was to forge the documents so they looked like official documents from the states, like right down to the State Seal and put the fake electors on that forged document and sent that to Congress. Wow! A lot of confidence you wouldn't get caught.
And whoever typed up those "documents" used the same template to send to each of the seven states. Just updated the state and the electors. But they are all missing the State Seal and the signature of governor.
Thanks to American Oversight these fraudulent documents can be found here:
Interesting. But when it happened I would have sworn that on TV they were showing some of the Documents that had State seals on them. Might it be that the archive logged them in without? To protect the states?
Perhaps in some states. But I would not think these seals are not handed out like candy. On the other hand it is easy to get an image of one.
"The Great Seal of the State of Wisconsin is a seal used by the Wisconsin Secretary of State to authenticate all the governor's official acts, except laws."
The forgeries were horrible. They were obvious fakes on their face and NARA called foul as soon as they opened the mail. Go to NARA, they post the votes and the letters from the States. You'll see the historical nature and the unique beauty of each. This reminds me of when I first developed the concept of money. I was a toddler and I wanted candy. I sneaked out of the house while my mother thought I was napping. We had a mom and pop grocery across the street and I picked up a piece of paper on my way there. I went in, picked my candy, went up to the cashier, and gave her my piece of paper. She laughed and called my mother. Busted.
They installed a chain link fence around the entire property with a gate across the driveway. I don't really have a personal memory of this, but my mother repeated it to me often.
Everyone from Donald on down to Waltine were just convinced they would be successful in keeping Donald in office (illegally of course). Despite having grown up knowing about, and, in a way, having experience with (via mob-run subcontractors), various mobs in NYC, Donald really never learned anything from them. Which is very fortunate because, otherwise, we would've never had anything in writing, the "perfect" phone call, etc., that is now being used as evidence.
This is a really good point, assuming you are right that each party selects electors. It also seems to be a tacit admission/recognition that the slate of electors previously chosen be the republican party were seen as unlikely to go along with this. As you point out, if a court found fraud and gave the election to Trump, the legit republican appointed electors would simply cast their vote so their would be no need for "alternate" slate of electors.
Does anyone know if the "fake electors" were actually the elected "Republican Electors"? I recall some documentation changing out specific electors but I can't recall which state(s). At the time I wondered if some of the electors had brothered to read the training material? LOL
Take Arizona, for example. Arizona has eleven electoral votes, so each party’s slate of designated electors had eleven members. The official slate of 2020 Republican electors, however, does not even match up with Trump’s fake electors. Of the eleven official members, only two of the eleven are on his fake list of electors. So all but two people on Trump’s slate of fake electors must have known they were fake, because they never ever had official party status.
"So junior high!" You nailed the description of so much of the coup-plotters actions. They thought they could sham and scam their way through class; and teacher wouldn't notice. Busted!
Stone is so steeped in the rat-f***ery of CREEP and Nixon-era politics, his affiliation with tRump is of a piece. Stone got away with a lot of questionable activities back then, and so brought his playbook to the tRump campaign and WH, where only a pardon saved his sorry arse from the slammer. Now he's vulnerable and criminally liable, with no pardon available, sorry. Jack Smith just has to be squeezing the bejesus out of Stone for info, with potential indictments hanging over him if he doesn't truthfully and comprehensively rat out tRump. You know, Gordon Liddy was such a Nixon loyalist, he served a prison sentence rather than betray his liege...does anyone believe that Stone would court a prison term to protect tRump?
And let's not forget the infamous Steve Bannon tape from late October, 2020:
"What Trump's gonna do, is just declare victory. Right? He's gonna declare victory. But that doesn't mean he's a winner," Bannon said in the clip, laughing. "He's just gonna say he's a winner."
"Say he's a winner", and THEN work toward that end, by hook or by crook...and two indictments later we now know how THAT went!
Stone and Bannon have been trying the same crap in Canada thru our Conservative caucus with Pierre Polliette !! The Evangelical zealots are using the same methods too ! Divide and conquer and all brought to you by dumpster 's repugnants and cronies!! I wonder how Orban got where he did without the help of these asshats ?? Makes you wonder !!
No, let's not. Warning bells were ringing in 2016, if not 2015. Politicals were calling out his pedigree at that time making it clear the agenda of the new Trump administration. He was the infecting virus.
That video of Stone has been around for awhile now, but before these indictments it lacked the context that regular people needed to see it in. People-at-large didn’t take him seriously, but as “just another Trump stooge” thanks to his rather goofy public persona. Now this film, as well as the myriad other little pieces of info (what is now evidence) that have trickled out since Nov 2020 has a thread. The Jan 6 committee attempted to show it, and did a great job with what they had, but there is SO much more now, thanks to the GA indictments in conjunction with Jack Smith’s work. One name is missing from the entire saga-Ted Cruz. I don’t know if his early involvement in the fake electors scheme was a crime, but it’s sure worth noting somewhere. He helped cook that book.
So if Stone is the beginning for electoral fraud scheme, then Chesebro and Eastman were brought in to put the legal polish and embellish the scheme to make it look legitimate.
But I wonder. Is Stone smart enough to think this up all by himself? While he was dictating the memo/email he seem to have worked out most of this in his mind.
How long had he been thinking about this? Or does this have an earlier versions? and persons?
So, why aren't Roger and Ronna included in any of the indictments, federal or GA? This is damning, but if there are no consequences for them, is it really?
Stome was pardoned before Trump left office so maybe his pardon covers these crimes? Not sure but I am sure we'll find out as all this moves along. As to McDaniel, if I was a Republican I would want her dismissed from her role in the RNC. Dirty hands problem at least
Nope. Pardons are specific, and the crimes Stone was pardoned for relate to the Mueller investigation (i.e. Russiagate). The pardon cannot be carried forward to future crimes. He is vulnerable.
I was wrong I think. It was Manafort. But they were long time friends and are? were? In business together doing consulting, Black, Manafort, Stone and Kelly. From ProPublica byline Ilya Marritz, "Paul Manafort was a longtime Republican consultant and lobbyist who’d developed a speciality working with unsavory, undemocratic clients. In 2004, he was hired by oligarchs supporting a pro-Russian party in Ukraine." Manafort's role was to defeat the Orange Rebellion.
I am told that the majority of Republicans are not MAGA people so my comment was based on that belief. It does not make sense for mainstream Republicans to want party leadership involved in either crime or sketchy behavior (dirty hands). If, on the other hand, the majority of Republicans are Trump worshipers and they believe in any means necessary including criminal behavior, then McDaniel is a great choice. I wonder what the truth is - are party members mostly MAGA or mostly mainstream??
Claire McDaniel pointed out this morning that the number of Independents has grown, because of people who have left the Republican party. We're dealing with a smaller GOP now, so when I see percentages of support for Trump, I know the actual numbers are not what they used to be.
The problem there is independent labelled Republicans may still vote Republican. I don't know how many times I have heard former Republicans say they absolutely couldn't vote for a Democrat. Although, Cheney said she would for Democrat if Trump was the Republican candidate.
Interesting. It does feel like moving chess pieces lately - how many actual Republicans are there in the US this week? I feel like it matters but I feel like it is almost impossible to reliably count or even estimate. Reminds me of those movies with two armies facing off and one army keeps rearranging the participants so the other army isn't sure how big or small the opponent is. Didn't we have that going on during the revolutionary war??
I wish I had been able to see the full interview with Claire McCaskill. I have previously tried to find numbers onhow many people have left the Republican party since 2016, but can't find solid numbers.
I honestly don’t know if anyone knows for certain. I also don’t know their process for electing the chair. The elected Rs certainly haven’t spoken up to condemn any of this crime. We could probably name a few, but certainly not many.
Gosh, I sure hope you’re right. I can’t help but worry that they’re already all-in. I do what I can do to push back and encourage folk to vote… every time… I will press on. I’m not optimistic. So glad to hear that others are more hopeful. Thank you. ✨
I don't think that the people who were pardoned by dumpster should get away with this bullshit! Their pardons should be removed and they should be in jail !! Also the Supreme Court judges that were placed there by the dumpster/ repugnants should be removed !!
I've never been a fan of Presidential pardons (or pardons by governors either). I'd like a well oiled fair system that worked well for everyone instead.
Well sure....was someone actually pardoned for crimes not yet committed? I know people talk about blanket pardons for whatever they have done or might do, but I doubt such things actually exist. Roger Stone committed actual crimes and was pardoned before Trump left office. A previous comment indicated these crimes were r/t the Russia probe (see above). Crimes he committed after Trump left office have not been pardoned for obvious reasons. The discussion here has been about things Stone said on video re: stealing the election and Trump's state of mind. There may be crimes he committed r/t those statements - I sure don't know. I haven't kept up with Trump's pardons of various folks and the timeline of crimes by these same people.
This discussion has made me wonder what goes through a President's mind when it comes to pardons before he (or she someday) leaves office - how do they decide these matters and are there limits to the number of pardons they each get?? I need to learn more about pardons I guess - am just not a fan of them so poorly motivated to study this
Wow! "Ben Ferencz was just 27 when he secured the convictions of Nazi officers for war crimes and crimes against humanity." https://www.bbc.com/news/world-65223756
The salient point about the "fake electors" was of course that the court filings were the pretext, and transmitting the "votes" of these "electors" was NOT "contingent" upon a successful court decision, but rather from a top-down criminal conspiracy, end of.
Excellent summary and commentary. Plenty of evidence, plenty of indictments, and one would think more than sufficient hard evidence to convict. So, now we wait.
No, he clearly wanted another pardon relating to January 6, and when he didn’t get it, he was sure he was going to prison. That didn’t happen either, so he is probably feeling pretty good right now. I would be he won’t be once further charges land.
Another great piece...I admit to feeling fearful now, the violent rhetoric of Matt Gaetz recently and the crazy woman in Texas threatening the judge. These people are savage and primitive and the GOP should condemn their behavior not glorify it by ignoring it. Just counting the days till we can get to trial...in the meantime, I hope no one gets killed.
Correction: The film crew is from Denmark, not the Netherlands, Danish and not Dutch.
Why haven't Stone and Bannon been indicted?
It’s a very interesting questions, isn’t it. Are they cooperating? Is the government planning something else with them? Are they just lucky? We will learn.
Before the election each party chooses a slate of electors. A person appears to vote for a candidate, but in reality is voting for the candidate's slate of electors. This official slate is the only one authorized to cast votes in the electoral college. Fake electors have no such authority. Claiming a fake elector is "contingent" upon the candidate winning a court case is absurd, because in the event the court found fraud and overturned the initial result, then the officially chosen electors would be the people who would cast the electoral votes. There is no legitimate scenario where the fake electors have any authority or purpose. They are nothing but imposters and useful idiots for criminals trying to steal the election. It's really that simple.
True, however what Cheseboro did was to forge the documents so they looked like official documents from the states, like right down to the State Seal and put the fake electors on that forged document and sent that to Congress. Wow! A lot of confidence you wouldn't get caught.
And whoever typed up those "documents" used the same template to send to each of the seven states. Just updated the state and the electors. But they are all missing the State Seal and the signature of governor.
Thanks to American Oversight these fraudulent documents can be found here:
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/20493986/nara-records-regarding-invalid-elector-slates-nara-21-0174-a.pdf
Thank you for posting that link - I've added those to my history collection. lol
Interesting. But when it happened I would have sworn that on TV they were showing some of the Documents that had State seals on them. Might it be that the archive logged them in without? To protect the states?
Perhaps in some states. But I would not think these seals are not handed out like candy. On the other hand it is easy to get an image of one.
"The Great Seal of the State of Wisconsin is a seal used by the Wisconsin Secretary of State to authenticate all the governor's official acts, except laws."
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_Wisconsin
The forgeries were horrible. They were obvious fakes on their face and NARA called foul as soon as they opened the mail. Go to NARA, they post the votes and the letters from the States. You'll see the historical nature and the unique beauty of each. This reminds me of when I first developed the concept of money. I was a toddler and I wanted candy. I sneaked out of the house while my mother thought I was napping. We had a mom and pop grocery across the street and I picked up a piece of paper on my way there. I went in, picked my candy, went up to the cashier, and gave her my piece of paper. She laughed and called my mother. Busted.
Quite a story! A toddler sneaking out and crossing the street alone?!
They installed a chain link fence around the entire property with a gate across the driveway. I don't really have a personal memory of this, but my mother repeated it to me often.
Oh, I believe that your mother brought it up often! Kudos to young you for noticing that paper = currency!
Everyone from Donald on down to Waltine were just convinced they would be successful in keeping Donald in office (illegally of course). Despite having grown up knowing about, and, in a way, having experience with (via mob-run subcontractors), various mobs in NYC, Donald really never learned anything from them. Which is very fortunate because, otherwise, we would've never had anything in writing, the "perfect" phone call, etc., that is now being used as evidence.
This is a really good point, assuming you are right that each party selects electors. It also seems to be a tacit admission/recognition that the slate of electors previously chosen be the republican party were seen as unlikely to go along with this. As you point out, if a court found fraud and gave the election to Trump, the legit republican appointed electors would simply cast their vote so their would be no need for "alternate" slate of electors.
I agree!
Does anyone know if the "fake electors" were actually the elected "Republican Electors"? I recall some documentation changing out specific electors but I can't recall which state(s). At the time I wondered if some of the electors had brothered to read the training material? LOL
Take Arizona, for example. Arizona has eleven electoral votes, so each party’s slate of designated electors had eleven members. The official slate of 2020 Republican electors, however, does not even match up with Trump’s fake electors. Of the eleven official members, only two of the eleven are on his fake list of electors. So all but two people on Trump’s slate of fake electors must have known they were fake, because they never ever had official party status.
Does anyone know if Trump gave her those names or if she recruited them?
Stone is slimy and oh, so arrogant. The nixon bumper sticker on a laptop?! So junior high!
"So junior high!" You nailed the description of so much of the coup-plotters actions. They thought they could sham and scam their way through class; and teacher wouldn't notice. Busted!
I read somewhere that Stone has a tattoo of Nixon’s face on his back. Ewww!
It's true!
Stone is so steeped in the rat-f***ery of CREEP and Nixon-era politics, his affiliation with tRump is of a piece. Stone got away with a lot of questionable activities back then, and so brought his playbook to the tRump campaign and WH, where only a pardon saved his sorry arse from the slammer. Now he's vulnerable and criminally liable, with no pardon available, sorry. Jack Smith just has to be squeezing the bejesus out of Stone for info, with potential indictments hanging over him if he doesn't truthfully and comprehensively rat out tRump. You know, Gordon Liddy was such a Nixon loyalist, he served a prison sentence rather than betray his liege...does anyone believe that Stone would court a prison term to protect tRump?
Right, neither do I !
And let's not forget the infamous Steve Bannon tape from late October, 2020:
"What Trump's gonna do, is just declare victory. Right? He's gonna declare victory. But that doesn't mean he's a winner," Bannon said in the clip, laughing. "He's just gonna say he's a winner."
"Say he's a winner", and THEN work toward that end, by hook or by crook...and two indictments later we now know how THAT went!
Stone and Bannon have been trying the same crap in Canada thru our Conservative caucus with Pierre Polliette !! The Evangelical zealots are using the same methods too ! Divide and conquer and all brought to you by dumpster 's repugnants and cronies!! I wonder how Orban got where he did without the help of these asshats ?? Makes you wonder !!
Wow! Didn't know they'd taken their "s**t show" on the road internationally! They definitely need a total smackdown.
....and Italy
Look to KGB historical effort at long term propaganda program mentioned recently. I would loved to see some historian validate that effort.
No, let's not. Warning bells were ringing in 2016, if not 2015. Politicals were calling out his pedigree at that time making it clear the agenda of the new Trump administration. He was the infecting virus.
That video of Stone has been around for awhile now, but before these indictments it lacked the context that regular people needed to see it in. People-at-large didn’t take him seriously, but as “just another Trump stooge” thanks to his rather goofy public persona. Now this film, as well as the myriad other little pieces of info (what is now evidence) that have trickled out since Nov 2020 has a thread. The Jan 6 committee attempted to show it, and did a great job with what they had, but there is SO much more now, thanks to the GA indictments in conjunction with Jack Smith’s work. One name is missing from the entire saga-Ted Cruz. I don’t know if his early involvement in the fake electors scheme was a crime, but it’s sure worth noting somewhere. He helped cook that book.
As did useful idiot Sen. Ron Johnson (Q-WI).
So if Stone is the beginning for electoral fraud scheme, then Chesebro and Eastman were brought in to put the legal polish and embellish the scheme to make it look legitimate.
But I wonder. Is Stone smart enough to think this up all by himself? While he was dictating the memo/email he seem to have worked out most of this in his mind.
How long had he been thinking about this? Or does this have an earlier versions? and persons?
The video is call "A Storm Foretold". It is described on IMDB. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt22306998/
Release March 30, 2023
So, it's safe to assume that Jack Smith and Fani Willis have long known about this tape?
So, why aren't Roger and Ronna included in any of the indictments, federal or GA? This is damning, but if there are no consequences for them, is it really?
My guess that they plan to bring separate charges and Stone and Bannon but are seeking their cooperation against Trump still.
Stome was pardoned before Trump left office so maybe his pardon covers these crimes? Not sure but I am sure we'll find out as all this moves along. As to McDaniel, if I was a Republican I would want her dismissed from her role in the RNC. Dirty hands problem at least
Nope. Pardons are specific, and the crimes Stone was pardoned for relate to the Mueller investigation (i.e. Russiagate). The pardon cannot be carried forward to future crimes. He is vulnerable.
I really wonder if that is not the nexus. Stone, Ukraine, and the Russians. Didn't Stone do some political advising in Ukraine?
I was wrong I think. It was Manafort. But they were long time friends and are? were? In business together doing consulting, Black, Manafort, Stone and Kelly. From ProPublica byline Ilya Marritz, "Paul Manafort was a longtime Republican consultant and lobbyist who’d developed a speciality working with unsavory, undemocratic clients. In 2004, he was hired by oligarchs supporting a pro-Russian party in Ukraine." Manafort's role was to defeat the Orange Rebellion.
State crimes cannot be pardoned at the federal level.
True. Was Stone's a state crime?
Isn’t that why they want her in that position…to assist in the dirty work?
I am told that the majority of Republicans are not MAGA people so my comment was based on that belief. It does not make sense for mainstream Republicans to want party leadership involved in either crime or sketchy behavior (dirty hands). If, on the other hand, the majority of Republicans are Trump worshipers and they believe in any means necessary including criminal behavior, then McDaniel is a great choice. I wonder what the truth is - are party members mostly MAGA or mostly mainstream??
Claire McDaniel pointed out this morning that the number of Independents has grown, because of people who have left the Republican party. We're dealing with a smaller GOP now, so when I see percentages of support for Trump, I know the actual numbers are not what they used to be.
The problem there is independent labelled Republicans may still vote Republican. I don't know how many times I have heard former Republicans say they absolutely couldn't vote for a Democrat. Although, Cheney said she would for Democrat if Trump was the Republican candidate.
Interesting. It does feel like moving chess pieces lately - how many actual Republicans are there in the US this week? I feel like it matters but I feel like it is almost impossible to reliably count or even estimate. Reminds me of those movies with two armies facing off and one army keeps rearranging the participants so the other army isn't sure how big or small the opponent is. Didn't we have that going on during the revolutionary war??
I wish I had been able to see the full interview with Claire McCaskill. I have previously tried to find numbers onhow many people have left the Republican party since 2016, but can't find solid numbers.
Whatever they are, MAGAt or not, the majority is spineless.
I honestly don’t know if anyone knows for certain. I also don’t know their process for electing the chair. The elected Rs certainly haven’t spoken up to condemn any of this crime. We could probably name a few, but certainly not many.
Gosh, I sure hope you’re right. I can’t help but worry that they’re already all-in. I do what I can do to push back and encourage folk to vote… every time… I will press on. I’m not optimistic. So glad to hear that others are more hopeful. Thank you. ✨
I don't think that the people who were pardoned by dumpster should get away with this bullshit! Their pardons should be removed and they should be in jail !! Also the Supreme Court judges that were placed there by the dumpster/ repugnants should be removed !!
I've never been a fan of Presidential pardons (or pardons by governors either). I'd like a well oiled fair system that worked well for everyone instead.
Nothing is ever perfect.
You can't pardon for crimes yet to be committed.
Well sure....was someone actually pardoned for crimes not yet committed? I know people talk about blanket pardons for whatever they have done or might do, but I doubt such things actually exist. Roger Stone committed actual crimes and was pardoned before Trump left office. A previous comment indicated these crimes were r/t the Russia probe (see above). Crimes he committed after Trump left office have not been pardoned for obvious reasons. The discussion here has been about things Stone said on video re: stealing the election and Trump's state of mind. There may be crimes he committed r/t those statements - I sure don't know. I haven't kept up with Trump's pardons of various folks and the timeline of crimes by these same people.
The Stone pardon question is really whether it was done to protect Trump.
He was already seeking a patdon for January 6th, and didn't get one.
Thanks
This discussion has made me wonder what goes through a President's mind when it comes to pardons before he (or she someday) leaves office - how do they decide these matters and are there limits to the number of pardons they each get?? I need to learn more about pardons I guess - am just not a fan of them so poorly motivated to study this
Trump behaves like he's at a hair pulling contest down at the daycare center only in this instance, his kids have guns.
The Trump 19 Trials need to be televised. And they need to begin soon and end fast !
Know this, Judge Scott McAfee is NINE YEARS OLDER than Ben Ferencz was at Nuremburg so don't put up with any ageist bullshit from those MAGATS !
Wow! "Ben Ferencz was just 27 when he secured the convictions of Nazi officers for war crimes and crimes against humanity." https://www.bbc.com/news/world-65223756
Another great piece!
The film crew is NOT from the Netherlands but from Denmark. Christoffer Guldbrandsen is Danish as is his photographer who filmed it.
Yes, I have corrected this error. My brain tends to mix up Danish and Dutch. It’s a terrible habit!
The salient point about the "fake electors" was of course that the court filings were the pretext, and transmitting the "votes" of these "electors" was NOT "contingent" upon a successful court decision, but rather from a top-down criminal conspiracy, end of.
Came for your great analysis; adore this piece for the Pun of the Month !
Groan 😆
Excellent summary and commentary. Plenty of evidence, plenty of indictments, and one would think more than sufficient hard evidence to convict. So, now we wait.
@Jay Kuo, Roger Stone, "apparently felt so invincible, especially coming off of a presidential pardon..."
What are the scope and limitations of Stone's pardon? Is he free to break the law at will now?
No, he clearly wanted another pardon relating to January 6, and when he didn’t get it, he was sure he was going to prison. That didn’t happen either, so he is probably feeling pretty good right now. I would be he won’t be once further charges land.
Another great piece...I admit to feeling fearful now, the violent rhetoric of Matt Gaetz recently and the crazy woman in Texas threatening the judge. These people are savage and primitive and the GOP should condemn their behavior not glorify it by ignoring it. Just counting the days till we can get to trial...in the meantime, I hope no one gets killed.
Some think Stone is Q! I think he’s just crazy.