Shouldn’t the analysis also take account of the number of police encounters with the population in question? Of course, some police encounters with people of color are manufactured through selective enforcement of broken-taillight and dangling-deodorant rules and other pretexts. But many, presumably, are not.
It’s a fair question and until lawsuits were filed around this (including those KVN assisted!) we didn’t have good numbers on how frequently black and brown motorists were being stopped relative to others, for example. What we learned from the Stanford Policing Project is that officers generally stop black drivers at higher rates than white drivers, and stop Hispanic drivers at similar or lower rates than white drivers. These broad patterns persist after controlling for the drivers’ age and gender. We also learned that minorities are far more likely to be searched than white drivers, even though the rates of contraband being found was equal between the two groups on a per search basis.
So it’s true that police encounters with black motorists at least are more prevalent per driver and more likely to escalate, which could lead to more incidents of violence. But this implies that a larger system is at work, one that is still racist in its outcomes and tragic rates of police killings.
Over policing provides more criminals and Privatization of the Prison system doesn't help either and all are intermingled with racist practices. The "Population" as you put it isn't the problem the system in place is.
Statistically, POC are likelier to be overpoliced, stopped for little or no reason, arrested for lesser crimes including crimes related to the stop itself (like resisting arrest or non-cooperation crimes which wouldn't have taken place had a LEO not stopped the person in the first place), charged with higher crimes (ones that will prevent job acquisition in the future), represented with inadequate representation, sentenced to longer jail terms, longer probation terms, some states, like Florida historically, denied full reinstatement of rights like voting.
To determine if race was a bias in a shooting we would have to know the number of interactions with police not the general population. Since every interaction with police is not a likely number we can obtain as police are not required to record every interaction we can use Police Arrests as a proxy for interactions. When you use actual arrests demographics and compare them to shootings you find that black people are not in fact shot at a higher rate. This is an important step in inference because the solution to the problems is inherently different. This means that the number of stops and/or arrests are at a higher frequency which leads to higher shot rates which could be from implicit bias of the officers, systemic issues such as a prevalence to socioeconomic factors that are correlated with higher crime, or a combination of the two. If it is merely a systemic issue teaching cops to stop being racist doesn't solve the problem. If it is a police are bias/racist issue solving systemic issues won't solve the problem.
How can either systemic issues or implicit bias issues actually be separated? If we agree that there are systemic issues that cause higher crime rates and therefore more shootings by police of people of color, then that has to be considered when searching for solutions, as well as implicit bias. IOW, to speak more directly, if people of color commit more crimes because of their economic conditions, then the police know this (that they commit more crimes), and operate on the assumption (wrong or not) that in general people of color are more dangerous than white people and should be approached in a more aggressive way. Then as this attitude continues, the police see all people of color as potential criminals and become or continue to be racially biased. And this attitude permeates the whole justice system. Since implicit bias has caused the economic conditions of people of color to be more difficult than white people's to begin with, then the whole thing is a vicious circle. The only way to begin to solve the problem is for the general population and police to actually be educated as to the economic conditions of non white people, the cause of them, and the effect those conditions have on their lives, a well as the lack of opportunity and education they experience, so that they can approach the black community in a more rational, empathetic way. It is not an easy road, because once the bias has set in, and has been ingrained in people all their lives, it is very difficult to eradicate.
Black people don't commit more crime. That's the point. Marijuana use is a good example. The percentage of people who illegally use marijuana is the same regardless of skin color, but the arrests are significantly higher for the black users.
Maybe, but I'm sure you would find it follows a similar path as with convictions and prison sentences. Black people are convicted at higher rates, and sentenced to longer terms than white people who have committed the same crimes. When was the last time you saw a story about a black college athlete (from a minor sport) being caught in the act of raping a girl behind a dumpster, and getting sentenced to a few months of community service?
Isn't the "when was the last time you read a story about" approach the exact type of statistically unsupported bias that this post is trying to counter?
No. I simply posed a question meant to make a reader think about it. There are a lot of specific examples of white defendants getting little or no jail time for some pretty egregious crimes. By comparison, how often does that happen with a black defendant? It's a serious question.
Disparities in policing, detention, sentencing, etc, are a real problem.
A major important part of all of this is the fact that police KILL people that should have either been free to go, warned, ticketed, or arrested. Dialogue about the number of people the cops manage to not kill is a red herring.
Your logic is flawed because you ignore the racial bias. People are Color are more likely to be stopped than white people. These are facts, it’s common sense that’s been proven over and over and over.
We could record every interaction and we could get that if Officers made sure they were on and didn't cover camera's or turn them off for "reasons". The only way to solve it is to make the Police more liable for bad decisions. They literally are above the law in many ways and know this which attracts a certain type of personality just like money in politics does. You also have to remove the money and privatization of Prisons to pad a company's pockets when the Government should be doing the job. Lastly I think they should have more than a year in training because right now they mainly learn how to defend themselves against the community but there is no sustained long term "internship" of sorts on actually dealing with the community. I mean it takes years to become a Doctor to save lives, but only a Highschool Degree and a couple months to be able to take a life?
I believe this rate is flawed. There’s a disparity in what Blacks and Whites get arrested for. For a White to get arrested, they need to engage in more serious criminal behavior. The higher number of arrests for less serious crimes among Blacks asymmetrically increases the denominator in the killings-per-arrest rate overall for Blacks relative to Whites, making it appear that Blacks are no more likely to be shot by police than Whites. But it’s a case of Simpson’s Paradox. If you could break it down by seriousness of initial arrest, you’d find that while police shoot Whites and Blacks at about the same rate when the initial crime is serious, they shoot Blacks much more often than Whites when the initial crime is less serious. In fact, you’ll find very few whites arrested at all at the lower end of that continuum. And when you do find them, they won’t end up shot.
Am sorry about Floyd and Daunte...but is it time that African American leaders started teaching thier children not to resist arrest. Just concentrating on the police alone wont solve the problem..ie Daunte had managed to escape what was the next step.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. It’s entirely too late for this. Breonna Taylor was sleeping. Elijah McClain was walking. Tamir Rice was playing on a playground. That’s all I’ll say. The citizens are not the problem.
You must not have any black friends. Mine teach their sons, specifically, how to act in the presence of the police in order to avoid violence. It is known as "The Talk." I won't say ALL black parents have The Talk with their sons, but enough do for the phrase to catch on.
Your victim blaming doesn't help your credibility here. They teach their kids this lesson far too young than they should have to. And there's plenty of footage of black people literally begging to not be shot after having peacefully complying. I saw a video yesterday of a young man who wasn't shot, but while he was standing still having cuffs put on him was told to stop resisting.
I would love to see a community outreach program from law enforcement that teaches kids why police do what they do and what best practices are when they are faced with a police encounter. I certainly would have benefited from this in school.
Unfortunately, the numbers suggest that the police will come into a school and say, "The best way for you kids to succeed and for me not to kill you is not to be black. Now, here are some other tips..."
In most of these shot-by-cop incidents I have seen, the citizen resisted or tried to flee. What are the facts... What percent of blacks vs whites who were shot either resisted arrest or tried to run?
Police don't have the right to kill you for not following their instructions or even if they think you’ve broken the law. Stop perpetuating the idea that they do. They don’t. In 2020 more unarmed people were killed by police than armed people. Human life needs to be valued. Its a JOB and police are not Gods among men!
but why do they run, so many of the killings I have seen on TV lately is because the person started mouthing off to the police, did not do what he/she was told to do and some broke free and ran. The police yelled stop multiple times. They can't shoot into the air, the round might come down and hit an inocent person. If the person would stay calm, do what he/she was told, none of it would happen. If the police was wrong, that person can come back and file a complaint against the police. But they run
Why do people run? The answer is biology. The human body responds to threats with either fight, flight, or freeze. You suggest that everybody will choose to freeze when the choice is more automatic than conscious. If you think that you wouldn't fight or run, the truth is you don't know until you're there.
And aain, cops should not murder people. Floyd wasn't running. Rice wasn't running. The list is incredibly long. Cops should not murder. If a cop is worried about hitting an innocent bystander, then they should not shoot at all.
Under what circumstances does it make sense for a police officer to shoot a fleeing suspect? This can only make sense if the suspect poses a grave threat to others, right? What am I missing?
Of course not. But resisting, fighting, running all escalate the situation. We want cops to defuse things in the face of escalation--very difficult. A cop cannot allow a suspect to return to his/her car where there may be a weapon.
I agree. Murder, however, is not the appropriate way to do that. It's time to move money away from the unnecessary, and put it into training and psychological testing of applicants. They let unqualified and dangerous people on the force. They recruit cruel people and deny good people. More training, more accountability, and better screening will reduce the number of officers who murder people.
You agree and want cops to respect citizens. Yet there is no talk about citizens needing to respect cops who, with any simple confrontation might be facing an ambush or shooter. It has to go both ways.
Apparently you haven't read the whole thread or watched any videos of these murders. I think you win today's missing the point award. Most of these cases there was obviously no threat from the person they murdered, literally begging for their lives, and/or on the ground hands up, and/or on the ground with a boot on their throat. If an officer is spooked at someone with their hands in the air then they don't need to be a cop.
I read and I watched. Floyd initially struggled and had to be pulled out of his car--what followed shouldn't have happened and the cop is facing the consequences. Wright fought his way back into his car where he might have had a weapon. Many cases escalate due to non-cooperation and the outcome would have been far different with a different initial action. Don't get me wrong--I don't believe for a second that these killings, and many others, should have taken place.
Shouldn’t the analysis also take account of the number of police encounters with the population in question? Of course, some police encounters with people of color are manufactured through selective enforcement of broken-taillight and dangling-deodorant rules and other pretexts. But many, presumably, are not.
It’s a fair question and until lawsuits were filed around this (including those KVN assisted!) we didn’t have good numbers on how frequently black and brown motorists were being stopped relative to others, for example. What we learned from the Stanford Policing Project is that officers generally stop black drivers at higher rates than white drivers, and stop Hispanic drivers at similar or lower rates than white drivers. These broad patterns persist after controlling for the drivers’ age and gender. We also learned that minorities are far more likely to be searched than white drivers, even though the rates of contraband being found was equal between the two groups on a per search basis.
So it’s true that police encounters with black motorists at least are more prevalent per driver and more likely to escalate, which could lead to more incidents of violence. But this implies that a larger system is at work, one that is still racist in its outcomes and tragic rates of police killings.
Thanks Jay.
Over policing provides more criminals and Privatization of the Prison system doesn't help either and all are intermingled with racist practices. The "Population" as you put it isn't the problem the system in place is.
See Joey's comment above.
Statistically, POC are likelier to be overpoliced, stopped for little or no reason, arrested for lesser crimes including crimes related to the stop itself (like resisting arrest or non-cooperation crimes which wouldn't have taken place had a LEO not stopped the person in the first place), charged with higher crimes (ones that will prevent job acquisition in the future), represented with inadequate representation, sentenced to longer jail terms, longer probation terms, some states, like Florida historically, denied full reinstatement of rights like voting.
So yeah, those police encounters...
We have plenty of evidence that there is a disproportionate level of police engagement with communities of color, and that that engagement disproportionately doesn't bear out evidence of a crime. There are tons of studies on this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/opinions/systemic-racism-police-evidence-criminal-justice-system/
To determine if race was a bias in a shooting we would have to know the number of interactions with police not the general population. Since every interaction with police is not a likely number we can obtain as police are not required to record every interaction we can use Police Arrests as a proxy for interactions. When you use actual arrests demographics and compare them to shootings you find that black people are not in fact shot at a higher rate. This is an important step in inference because the solution to the problems is inherently different. This means that the number of stops and/or arrests are at a higher frequency which leads to higher shot rates which could be from implicit bias of the officers, systemic issues such as a prevalence to socioeconomic factors that are correlated with higher crime, or a combination of the two. If it is merely a systemic issue teaching cops to stop being racist doesn't solve the problem. If it is a police are bias/racist issue solving systemic issues won't solve the problem.
How can either systemic issues or implicit bias issues actually be separated? If we agree that there are systemic issues that cause higher crime rates and therefore more shootings by police of people of color, then that has to be considered when searching for solutions, as well as implicit bias. IOW, to speak more directly, if people of color commit more crimes because of their economic conditions, then the police know this (that they commit more crimes), and operate on the assumption (wrong or not) that in general people of color are more dangerous than white people and should be approached in a more aggressive way. Then as this attitude continues, the police see all people of color as potential criminals and become or continue to be racially biased. And this attitude permeates the whole justice system. Since implicit bias has caused the economic conditions of people of color to be more difficult than white people's to begin with, then the whole thing is a vicious circle. The only way to begin to solve the problem is for the general population and police to actually be educated as to the economic conditions of non white people, the cause of them, and the effect those conditions have on their lives, a well as the lack of opportunity and education they experience, so that they can approach the black community in a more rational, empathetic way. It is not an easy road, because once the bias has set in, and has been ingrained in people all their lives, it is very difficult to eradicate.
Black people don't commit more crime. That's the point. Marijuana use is a good example. The percentage of people who illegally use marijuana is the same regardless of skin color, but the arrests are significantly higher for the black users.
Maybe, but I'm sure you would find it follows a similar path as with convictions and prison sentences. Black people are convicted at higher rates, and sentenced to longer terms than white people who have committed the same crimes. When was the last time you saw a story about a black college athlete (from a minor sport) being caught in the act of raping a girl behind a dumpster, and getting sentenced to a few months of community service?
Isn't the "when was the last time you read a story about" approach the exact type of statistically unsupported bias that this post is trying to counter?
No. I simply posed a question meant to make a reader think about it. There are a lot of specific examples of white defendants getting little or no jail time for some pretty egregious crimes. By comparison, how often does that happen with a black defendant? It's a serious question.
Disparities in policing, detention, sentencing, etc, are a real problem.
Here's one example:
https://www.hamiltonproject.org/charts/rates_of_drug_use_and_sales_by_race_rates_of_drug_related_criminal_justice
A major important part of all of this is the fact that police KILL people that should have either been free to go, warned, ticketed, or arrested. Dialogue about the number of people the cops manage to not kill is a red herring.
Your logic is flawed because you ignore the racial bias. People are Color are more likely to be stopped than white people. These are facts, it’s common sense that’s been proven over and over and over.
I didn’t ignore that—I raised it explicitly.
Huh? Did you read what he wrote?
We could record every interaction and we could get that if Officers made sure they were on and didn't cover camera's or turn them off for "reasons". The only way to solve it is to make the Police more liable for bad decisions. They literally are above the law in many ways and know this which attracts a certain type of personality just like money in politics does. You also have to remove the money and privatization of Prisons to pad a company's pockets when the Government should be doing the job. Lastly I think they should have more than a year in training because right now they mainly learn how to defend themselves against the community but there is no sustained long term "internship" of sorts on actually dealing with the community. I mean it takes years to become a Doctor to save lives, but only a Highschool Degree and a couple months to be able to take a life?
I believe this rate is flawed. There’s a disparity in what Blacks and Whites get arrested for. For a White to get arrested, they need to engage in more serious criminal behavior. The higher number of arrests for less serious crimes among Blacks asymmetrically increases the denominator in the killings-per-arrest rate overall for Blacks relative to Whites, making it appear that Blacks are no more likely to be shot by police than Whites. But it’s a case of Simpson’s Paradox. If you could break it down by seriousness of initial arrest, you’d find that while police shoot Whites and Blacks at about the same rate when the initial crime is serious, they shoot Blacks much more often than Whites when the initial crime is less serious. In fact, you’ll find very few whites arrested at all at the lower end of that continuum. And when you do find them, they won’t end up shot.
This is a good write-up. I spent about 10 years training and working with LEO and Emergency Reponse agencies at the local, state, and federal levels and I can vouch that the mentality has become more militant within these communities, predominately in LEO and to an extent Fire and EMS. Do a quick search for "sheepdog" and "police" and it will be plain as day. I originally discussed the danger of such involving group identity in this article but it never made the final edit due to "offending the reader base" also gave some talks some time ago. https://www.firefighternation.com/leadership/hard-truths-about-and-possible-solutions-to-the-failure-of-leadership-and-training-of-firefighters-and-the-subsequent-volunteer-crisis-in-the-united-states/ I recently released an article on medium, not about this particular thing but regarding minimum wage and the attack on social mobility. I am still building out the dataset, but have a good bit already compiled. Hit me up if you want to use the original data. It may be of some use to you. https://rneal-cook.medium.com/social-mobility-the-making-or-breaking-of-a-society-and-how-it-reflects-on-current-social-issues-89c4e0ea076a
Wow, the Sheepdog problem is very relevant to this discussion! https://newrepublic.com/article/158136/military-veterans-police-sheepdog-problem
Am sorry about Floyd and Daunte...but is it time that African American leaders started teaching thier children not to resist arrest. Just concentrating on the police alone wont solve the problem..ie Daunte had managed to escape what was the next step.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. It’s entirely too late for this. Breonna Taylor was sleeping. Elijah McClain was walking. Tamir Rice was playing on a playground. That’s all I’ll say. The citizens are not the problem.
You must not have any black friends. Mine teach their sons, specifically, how to act in the presence of the police in order to avoid violence. It is known as "The Talk." I won't say ALL black parents have The Talk with their sons, but enough do for the phrase to catch on.
It’s time we started teaching cops not to play executioner when they feel the slightest bit scared in a situation that they escalated themselves.
Your victim blaming doesn't help your credibility here. They teach their kids this lesson far too young than they should have to. And there's plenty of footage of black people literally begging to not be shot after having peacefully complying. I saw a video yesterday of a young man who wasn't shot, but while he was standing still having cuffs put on him was told to stop resisting.
“… who now claims she didn’t know she had drawn her gun rather than her taser, firing on him as he was trying to escape.”
Potter immediately reacted to the gunshot a split second after she pulled the trigger so what kind of word trickery is the author pulling here?
I would love to see a community outreach program from law enforcement that teaches kids why police do what they do and what best practices are when they are faced with a police encounter. I certainly would have benefited from this in school.
That would be nice.
Unfortunately, the numbers suggest that the police will come into a school and say, "The best way for you kids to succeed and for me not to kill you is not to be black. Now, here are some other tips..."
You are an absolute retard
In most of these shot-by-cop incidents I have seen, the citizen resisted or tried to flee. What are the facts... What percent of blacks vs whites who were shot either resisted arrest or tried to run?
Police don't have the right to kill you for not following their instructions or even if they think you’ve broken the law. Stop perpetuating the idea that they do. They don’t. In 2020 more unarmed people were killed by police than armed people. Human life needs to be valued. Its a JOB and police are not Gods among men!
This doesn't matter. Cops shouldn't kill guilty people anymore than the innocent.
but why do they run, so many of the killings I have seen on TV lately is because the person started mouthing off to the police, did not do what he/she was told to do and some broke free and ran. The police yelled stop multiple times. They can't shoot into the air, the round might come down and hit an inocent person. If the person would stay calm, do what he/she was told, none of it would happen. If the police was wrong, that person can come back and file a complaint against the police. But they run
Why do people run? The answer is biology. The human body responds to threats with either fight, flight, or freeze. You suggest that everybody will choose to freeze when the choice is more automatic than conscious. If you think that you wouldn't fight or run, the truth is you don't know until you're there.
And aain, cops should not murder people. Floyd wasn't running. Rice wasn't running. The list is incredibly long. Cops should not murder. If a cop is worried about hitting an innocent bystander, then they should not shoot at all.
Under what circumstances does it make sense for a police officer to shoot a fleeing suspect? This can only make sense if the suspect poses a grave threat to others, right? What am I missing?
Why do you feel that running away justifies a death sentence?
No one has suggested that. Why do you think it is ok to fight a cop when faced with a simple traffic stop?
That's correct
Of course not. But resisting, fighting, running all escalate the situation. We want cops to defuse things in the face of escalation--very difficult. A cop cannot allow a suspect to return to his/her car where there may be a weapon.
I agree. Murder, however, is not the appropriate way to do that. It's time to move money away from the unnecessary, and put it into training and psychological testing of applicants. They let unqualified and dangerous people on the force. They recruit cruel people and deny good people. More training, more accountability, and better screening will reduce the number of officers who murder people.
You agree and want cops to respect citizens. Yet there is no talk about citizens needing to respect cops who, with any simple confrontation might be facing an ambush or shooter. It has to go both ways.
Apparently you haven't read the whole thread or watched any videos of these murders. I think you win today's missing the point award. Most of these cases there was obviously no threat from the person they murdered, literally begging for their lives, and/or on the ground hands up, and/or on the ground with a boot on their throat. If an officer is spooked at someone with their hands in the air then they don't need to be a cop.
I read and I watched. Floyd initially struggled and had to be pulled out of his car--what followed shouldn't have happened and the cop is facing the consequences. Wright fought his way back into his car where he might have had a weapon. Many cases escalate due to non-cooperation and the outcome would have been far different with a different initial action. Don't get me wrong--I don't believe for a second that these killings, and many others, should have taken place.
That's a question I'd like answered too.
Why? It doesn’t matter. Cops shouldn’t be killing people whether they run/resist or not.
Shouting and someone calls the police because of the noise