I like the “major fines“ idea. In the Engeron example, $5000 and then $10,000 are chump change for Trump, and worth the grifting and publicity. If he was hit by a $500,000 or $750,000 fine, that would start to get him where it hurts, and it would be difficult for him to quickly grift that much money back.
I had suggested in another piece that a graduated fine with a different multiplier each time could work too. I also think his attorneys should be fined for not keeping their client in line. And, throwing in a gag, of not allowing him to use social media for a week, would be great! Increasing the time with that would be great! Of course, then he needs to be in front of the press. Perhaps someone should suggest that the next time the press gives him coverage be only as he participates in a Republican Debate.
I like this too, but I wonder if that high of a fine would go over with his followers similarly as if he were thrown in jail. While it would be a reasonable range, given his self-reported level of worth, it would probably sound like an exorbitant amount to his less wealthy followers, who are likely to assess the amount as if it were applied to them, rather than han stopping to consider how much it is relative to his wealth.
At this juncture I care less about the optics for the MAGA crowd and more for that of the moderate independents. Anyone without right-wing rabies foam around their mouth can see that Trump is being handled with kid gloves. It makes the judicial system look weak, and it makes Trump look privileged and empowered.
He is privileged and empowered, and so are lots of other people who do not face the full force of the justice system. As I told my daughter when she was little and complained that something was unfair, I would say that the only unfair thing is that all children in the world do not have it as good as she and her friends. Rather than violating Trump's rights, (and I loathe him enough to have basically moved to another country), I would rather see us elevate the rights of the common man. Let us complain that everyone does not get this much consideration, and that should be the standard for everyone.
One problem is that the fines don't have to be paid until 30 days later. That means to trump that it doesn't exist. The fines should have to be paid at least at the end of the week. And as they get higher, they need to be paid in 2 or 3 days in full or else he does get jailed.
He's notorious for stiffing everyone and he's not going to stop just because it's the law. The law means little to him.
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to call a judge “corrupt,” “unhinged,” “a nut job,” “grossly incompetent,” a “partisan political hack,” and a “Radical Trump Hater,” but the penalties vary, apparently, depending.
“For example, Sam Bankman-Fried’s bail was revoked and he was sent to prison after a judge found he had violated his pre-trial release conditions by seeking to influence witnesses.”
There’s a paradox at work whereby Trump somehow doesn’t have to go to prison because he tampers with witnesses in public at full volume. No judge has to “find” that he’s doing it; anyone who can read knows it.
If one's unique political position leaves one to walk free, despite having committed most heinous crimes, then how are people to have any faith in law any longer?
I’m sure that’s really it, but there’s a hiding-in-plain-sight aspect to Trump’s criminality that gets very frustrating. And it’s definitely pulled the wool over the eyes of the people who get paid six and seven figures to cover national politics.
I fear that if and when x45 is found guilty and imprisonment is handed down that all h3ll will break loose. Because he has fed his 'followers" such a boatload of lies and whatnot that they will 'take up arms' and life will get terribly ugly here in the USA.
They will take up their semiautomatics against the US army. Which has F-16 and long-range missiles. The military, for all its conservatism, had already stated they are not interested in supporting someone who had put himself above the Constitution.
Things will probably get ugly in the US anyway. Satisfying MAGAts is not compatible with equality under the law or democracy. I’m tired of everyone fearing these ignorant, small minded rubes.
Would house arrest be an option? Turn his security detail into his jailers, put strict limits on who is allowed to visit him, and ban him from the Internet while he's confined.
After the Secret Service's Jan. 6th behavior and the intensely suspect deletion of texts right after, one can't help but wonder about exactly who and what has its loyalty.
I posted a comment further down on house detention possibilities, but let’s explore the jail option for a second, since he’ll eventually end up there (federal, state, please somewhere). Some prison facility somewhere must have an older cell block that has been decommissioned or not being used. Put him in there, alone, solitary. No security concerns. Post the secret service outside along with the prison guards. Ever taken the Alcatraz tour? It ain’t pretty. There would be one obvious problem, the water pressure to the shower heads is too low for his perfect hair - weather he’s in isolation or the gang rape general population showers.
One perfect example of how to “jail” him without what we consider traditional, usual and customary confinement. I am sure that within 24 hours, many people could devise multiple methods of confinement that don’t pose all the problems that seem to plague the justice system while looking at sanctions.
It's seriously disturbing that Trump paints being held accountable as something only a failed state would do and bellows "make America great again" and what's worse, that the courts (and the media?) assume his followers believe him and behave accordingly. BUT, fewer followers show up at his rallies, if reports are to be believed, and the numbers of those who state they will not vote for him if he's convicted of any of the crimes are increasing, which would indicate that his base is shrinking and losing patience with his antics. Yet polls suggest he's still a viable candidate far ahead of others in his party and Republicans in the House seem to still fear his disapproval, although those in the Senate seem less fearful. I'm confused. This seems like a classic perception vs. reality issue. How much support among the masses does he really have? And how solid is it?
I wonder about that dichotomy every day. I believe his base is losing interest in him steadily and faking away. I believe that can not be reported because there is too much money to be lost in media circles alone if the tension slackens. Plus that news would touch off a further exodus of his supporters.
Since all the the truths have come out and since he has been indicted, and most of his base know he is lying, I believe fewer and fewer are willing to play along. These are my deductions. I believe we need to get some stats and report accurately.
Yet all the noise coming from that side of the aisle is about Biden's age and supposed dementia, which he clearly does not have. After Reagan having Alzheimer's while in office, I think we all know what to look for (or at least those of us who were around during Reagan's idiocy). Long before the media noticed, the doctors I worked with at the time had it pegged.
Yes, Mel. That’s exactly why I believe the reports of the strength of his base are hogwash. The media has so much to lose financially if they don’t keep stoking the Trump furnace with constant untruths that make it appear like they’re neck and neck with the reasonable Democrats.
Absolutely agree, Karen. If tfg is not on the ballot, someone else from the GQP will be, and that someone might have a better chance than tfg. I am reminded of a statement to the effect of 'If your enemy is making mistakes, don't stop him!' Let tfg dig his own damn grave - he's doing it very well so far.
I am not above petty vindictiveness where Trump is concerned. But as much as I want him to rot in the most horrible jail in the country, starting yesterday, my more grown-up, reasonable, mind wants the prosecutors and judges to do exactly what they are doing, which is making sure they don't give Trump and his defense team any toe holds for a successful appeal, if (hopefully, when) he is convicted.
Judge Chutkan has several good options, any of which she should spell out to TFG and his lawyers step by step. Similar to Judge Engoron, start with financial sanctions, increasing in dollar amount. Next a one week blackout on social media, with increases in length for future violations. Next is house detention at Bedminster, indoors and windows shut, he can only leave for court appearances and case(s) related reasons. The Secret Service can guard him there, but it’s not their duty to keep him restricted to house arrest. Assign some U.S. Marshals and invoice TFG for the incurred costs.
So what if he’s a presidential candidate. That’s his day job. It’s not like your average arrestee out on bail that needs his job to feed a family and pay rent.
Another likely reason Judge Chutkan reinstated the gag order is Pence is now in full play having dropped out as a presidential candidate. The MAGA crowd loves to hear Pence get slammed. TFG won’t be able to resist.
"Upon the next violation, Judge Chutkan could issue an order to show cause why his pre-trial release should not be revoked"
What are the pros and cons of her including a directive in that order that the Secret Service and federal prison system (or whomever) prepare a plan for his temporary confinement in the event his pre-trail release is revoked? She would essentially be pre-emptively removing a potential argument (*cough-stalling tactic-cough*) his lawyers would use to prevent that.
Also: "Minute Order" as in "minute" (so small it can be read in 60 seconds) or "my-noot" ( really tiny - waaaay smaller than most court documents written by lawyers)? Pedantic minds want to know.
Edit: Or "Minute" as in Summary of an official proceeding (aka Meeting Minutes).
I _really_ like the directive that the SS/prison system must “prepare a plan for temporary confinement” idea.
And, yeah … it’s been bugging me that I haven’t been able to figure out the “minute/minute/minute” thing from context clues with so much written about the topic.
As for Mark Meadows' attorney Terwillger "disputing" whether he flipped at all or not, it is interesting that all I can find on this is Terwillger's statement: "I told ABC that their story was largely inaccurate. People will have to judge for themselves the decision to run it anyway." Classic lawyer double talk. He isn't specifying ANYTHING that's inaccurate. The statement is painted with a very broad brush so that ultimately, it's a non-denial denial. Meadows could have flipped, and ABC can report he said "I met with Smith at 3pm on Tuesday and told him the following..." If he met him at 3:10pm, Terwilliger says "that story is largely inaccurate."
The essence of the story can be totally accurate, but any minute deviation and the defense lawyer goes off with "that never happened."
Donald Trump doesn’t think. Not in the way any actual human beings do. “Gimme” and “not my fault” and “Someone kill this guy” are not really thoughts per se.
Thank you for your LUCID explanation of the almost UNexplainable! Hard to accept that this former POTUS continues to embattle our Justice system, to fool so many fools, to stride forward every day into the sewer of his mind and character, exposing such and being proudly resolute of it.
"A furious Trump " - I call BS. It's just Bully Tactics. He's just a Blow Hard. Yes, please do get the country to get in line with him being in jail, and censored (as in, cut off from the rest of the world) for at least 20 years. The time for a "trump Time Out" is now!
Put this guy in jail. Not putting him there shows that the rich and powerful have privileges that common people could only hope for. His bullying and self aggrandizing comments are straight from the lack of parenting his parents bestowed on him. No repercussions…. Allowed to trash the staff…. Put on a pedestal and not counciled on his outrageous opinions and actions. Bad seed!
I like the “major fines“ idea. In the Engeron example, $5000 and then $10,000 are chump change for Trump, and worth the grifting and publicity. If he was hit by a $500,000 or $750,000 fine, that would start to get him where it hurts, and it would be difficult for him to quickly grift that much money back.
Just double his fine for every violation. He'll be at $500K in no time.
I had suggested in another piece that a graduated fine with a different multiplier each time could work too. I also think his attorneys should be fined for not keeping their client in line. And, throwing in a gag, of not allowing him to use social media for a week, would be great! Increasing the time with that would be great! Of course, then he needs to be in front of the press. Perhaps someone should suggest that the next time the press gives him coverage be only as he participates in a Republican Debate.
In a later post I speculated about the value of moving the trial date up each time he violates a gag order. That might hit him harder than fines.
I like this too, but I wonder if that high of a fine would go over with his followers similarly as if he were thrown in jail. While it would be a reasonable range, given his self-reported level of worth, it would probably sound like an exorbitant amount to his less wealthy followers, who are likely to assess the amount as if it were applied to them, rather than han stopping to consider how much it is relative to his wealth.
At this juncture I care less about the optics for the MAGA crowd and more for that of the moderate independents. Anyone without right-wing rabies foam around their mouth can see that Trump is being handled with kid gloves. It makes the judicial system look weak, and it makes Trump look privileged and empowered.
He is privileged and empowered, and so are lots of other people who do not face the full force of the justice system. As I told my daughter when she was little and complained that something was unfair, I would say that the only unfair thing is that all children in the world do not have it as good as she and her friends. Rather than violating Trump's rights, (and I loathe him enough to have basically moved to another country), I would rather see us elevate the rights of the common man. Let us complain that everyone does not get this much consideration, and that should be the standard for everyone.
Well stated. We lived in Germany for awhile, and are monitoring the situation here for possible emigration if necessary.
Baby Donald Smallhands the Insane said yesterday said that his legal fees have exceeded $100 million, but that was part of a fund-raising effort. Reuters reported about a month ago that his legal fees could exceed $50 million, which is more than he had raised at that time. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trumps-campaign-machine-is-bleeding-cash-legal-expenses-2023-09-29/
Legal fees that he is fundraising off of but doesn't pay
Strait-jacket and ball gag for $1000, Alex.
Oooh, let's do that!
One problem is that the fines don't have to be paid until 30 days later. That means to trump that it doesn't exist. The fines should have to be paid at least at the end of the week. And as they get higher, they need to be paid in 2 or 3 days in full or else he does get jailed.
He's notorious for stiffing everyone and he's not going to stop just because it's the law. The law means little to him.
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to call a judge “corrupt,” “unhinged,” “a nut job,” “grossly incompetent,” a “partisan political hack,” and a “Radical Trump Hater,” but the penalties vary, apparently, depending.
“For example, Sam Bankman-Fried’s bail was revoked and he was sent to prison after a judge found he had violated his pre-trial release conditions by seeking to influence witnesses.”
There’s a paradox at work whereby Trump somehow doesn’t have to go to prison because he tampers with witnesses in public at full volume. No judge has to “find” that he’s doing it; anyone who can read knows it.
It’s more his unique political position I think.
If one's unique political position leaves one to walk free, despite having committed most heinous crimes, then how are people to have any faith in law any longer?
I’m sure that’s really it, but there’s a hiding-in-plain-sight aspect to Trump’s criminality that gets very frustrating. And it’s definitely pulled the wool over the eyes of the people who get paid six and seven figures to cover national politics.
I fear that if and when x45 is found guilty and imprisonment is handed down that all h3ll will break loose. Because he has fed his 'followers" such a boatload of lies and whatnot that they will 'take up arms' and life will get terribly ugly here in the USA.
They will take up their semiautomatics against the US army. Which has F-16 and long-range missiles. The military, for all its conservatism, had already stated they are not interested in supporting someone who had put himself above the Constitution.
Provided that Tubby Tommy hasn't gutted the military by then.
But the military is made up of individuals, some of whom love Trump
Things will probably get ugly in the US anyway. Satisfying MAGAts is not compatible with equality under the law or democracy. I’m tired of everyone fearing these ignorant, small minded rubes.
Would house arrest be an option? Turn his security detail into his jailers, put strict limits on who is allowed to visit him, and ban him from the Internet while he's confined.
It’s a possibility, but it wouldn’t be much of a penalty. Unless no golf.
Take away his GOLF and he'd probably have a stroke.
We can only hope...
The issue is restraining him, not punishment per se.
Besides, a gilded cage is still a cage.
That would probably work if those Secret Service guys weren't MAGA.
After the Secret Service's Jan. 6th behavior and the intensely suspect deletion of texts right after, one can't help but wonder about exactly who and what has its loyalty.
... and WHY Commander bit some of them.
It is true that dogs are excellent judges of character.
Was always my thinking that Commander knew something we didn't--dogs recognize shitty people
I posted a comment further down on house detention possibilities, but let’s explore the jail option for a second, since he’ll eventually end up there (federal, state, please somewhere). Some prison facility somewhere must have an older cell block that has been decommissioned or not being used. Put him in there, alone, solitary. No security concerns. Post the secret service outside along with the prison guards. Ever taken the Alcatraz tour? It ain’t pretty. There would be one obvious problem, the water pressure to the shower heads is too low for his perfect hair - weather he’s in isolation or the gang rape general population showers.
Langley. CIA Headquarters. Built-in guards to send Secret Service home. Deep, Deep facilities to "house" him.
A Putin spy in CIA Langley. I think not.
Deep in the bowels. Can’t think of a better, more secure spot.
One perfect example of how to “jail” him without what we consider traditional, usual and customary confinement. I am sure that within 24 hours, many people could devise multiple methods of confinement that don’t pose all the problems that seem to plague the justice system while looking at sanctions.
This seems like a reasonable work-around for the logistical problem of his security detail having to follow him to jail.
I was wondering the same thing.
It's seriously disturbing that Trump paints being held accountable as something only a failed state would do and bellows "make America great again" and what's worse, that the courts (and the media?) assume his followers believe him and behave accordingly. BUT, fewer followers show up at his rallies, if reports are to be believed, and the numbers of those who state they will not vote for him if he's convicted of any of the crimes are increasing, which would indicate that his base is shrinking and losing patience with his antics. Yet polls suggest he's still a viable candidate far ahead of others in his party and Republicans in the House seem to still fear his disapproval, although those in the Senate seem less fearful. I'm confused. This seems like a classic perception vs. reality issue. How much support among the masses does he really have? And how solid is it?
I wonder about that dichotomy every day. I believe his base is losing interest in him steadily and faking away. I believe that can not be reported because there is too much money to be lost in media circles alone if the tension slackens. Plus that news would touch off a further exodus of his supporters.
...excuse me... falling away.
"Plus that news would touch off a further exodus of his supporters." If only....
Since all the the truths have come out and since he has been indicted, and most of his base know he is lying, I believe fewer and fewer are willing to play along. These are my deductions. I believe we need to get some stats and report accurately.
They have also noticed him weakening mentally and physically.
Yet all the noise coming from that side of the aisle is about Biden's age and supposed dementia, which he clearly does not have. After Reagan having Alzheimer's while in office, I think we all know what to look for (or at least those of us who were around during Reagan's idiocy). Long before the media noticed, the doctors I worked with at the time had it pegged.
I am a physician and I knew within 2 years of his first term. And it got steadily worse.
Biden shows NO signs of dementia.
Yes, Mel. That’s exactly why I believe the reports of the strength of his base are hogwash. The media has so much to lose financially if they don’t keep stoking the Trump furnace with constant untruths that make it appear like they’re neck and neck with the reasonable Democrats.
It’s why I believe that a 2nd match between President Biden and the traitor in 2024 is a win for democracy. He’s exhausting.
Absolutely agree, Karen. If tfg is not on the ballot, someone else from the GQP will be, and that someone might have a better chance than tfg. I am reminded of a statement to the effect of 'If your enemy is making mistakes, don't stop him!' Let tfg dig his own damn grave - he's doing it very well so far.
Someone who is probably smarter with the same evil intentions as the traitor. That’s what I fear.
Exactly! Not much different from the situation with the Speaker of the House. Be careful what you wish for!
Will no one rid us of this meddlesome menace?
I am not above petty vindictiveness where Trump is concerned. But as much as I want him to rot in the most horrible jail in the country, starting yesterday, my more grown-up, reasonable, mind wants the prosecutors and judges to do exactly what they are doing, which is making sure they don't give Trump and his defense team any toe holds for a successful appeal, if (hopefully, when) he is convicted.
Judge Chutkan has several good options, any of which she should spell out to TFG and his lawyers step by step. Similar to Judge Engoron, start with financial sanctions, increasing in dollar amount. Next a one week blackout on social media, with increases in length for future violations. Next is house detention at Bedminster, indoors and windows shut, he can only leave for court appearances and case(s) related reasons. The Secret Service can guard him there, but it’s not their duty to keep him restricted to house arrest. Assign some U.S. Marshals and invoice TFG for the incurred costs.
So what if he’s a presidential candidate. That’s his day job. It’s not like your average arrestee out on bail that needs his job to feed a family and pay rent.
Another likely reason Judge Chutkan reinstated the gag order is Pence is now in full play having dropped out as a presidential candidate. The MAGA crowd loves to hear Pence get slammed. TFG won’t be able to resist.
Indeed, expect TFG to make some comments on Pence.
House arrest- make him wear an ankle bracelet. That will be a fun accessory at his next maggot rally
Makes for an inconsistent tan line when playing tennis.
LOL
Well reasoned, especially about slowly ratcheting penalties, so that the public gets used to Trump's legal position in a step-by-step process..
“Getting the public used to the idea of Trump in jail”. Can’t wait for that day
"Upon the next violation, Judge Chutkan could issue an order to show cause why his pre-trial release should not be revoked"
What are the pros and cons of her including a directive in that order that the Secret Service and federal prison system (or whomever) prepare a plan for his temporary confinement in the event his pre-trail release is revoked? She would essentially be pre-emptively removing a potential argument (*cough-stalling tactic-cough*) his lawyers would use to prevent that.
Also: "Minute Order" as in "minute" (so small it can be read in 60 seconds) or "my-noot" ( really tiny - waaaay smaller than most court documents written by lawyers)? Pedantic minds want to know.
Edit: Or "Minute" as in Summary of an official proceeding (aka Meeting Minutes).
I _really_ like the directive that the SS/prison system must “prepare a plan for temporary confinement” idea.
And, yeah … it’s been bugging me that I haven’t been able to figure out the “minute/minute/minute” thing from context clues with so much written about the topic.
Thanks for asking - I'm wondering that too.
Good question.
As for Mark Meadows' attorney Terwillger "disputing" whether he flipped at all or not, it is interesting that all I can find on this is Terwillger's statement: "I told ABC that their story was largely inaccurate. People will have to judge for themselves the decision to run it anyway." Classic lawyer double talk. He isn't specifying ANYTHING that's inaccurate. The statement is painted with a very broad brush so that ultimately, it's a non-denial denial. Meadows could have flipped, and ABC can report he said "I met with Smith at 3pm on Tuesday and told him the following..." If he met him at 3:10pm, Terwilliger says "that story is largely inaccurate."
The essence of the story can be totally accurate, but any minute deviation and the defense lawyer goes off with "that never happened."
It is hard to imagine the thinkings of a man who keeps poking a bear. And, I really don’t want to!
Donald Trump doesn’t think. Not in the way any actual human beings do. “Gimme” and “not my fault” and “Someone kill this guy” are not really thoughts per se.
He’s never had repercussions and still hasn’t
Thank you for your LUCID explanation of the almost UNexplainable! Hard to accept that this former POTUS continues to embattle our Justice system, to fool so many fools, to stride forward every day into the sewer of his mind and character, exposing such and being proudly resolute of it.
Well said, Kathryn. 👏👏👏👏
"A furious Trump " - I call BS. It's just Bully Tactics. He's just a Blow Hard. Yes, please do get the country to get in line with him being in jail, and censored (as in, cut off from the rest of the world) for at least 20 years. The time for a "trump Time Out" is now!
Put this guy in jail. Not putting him there shows that the rich and powerful have privileges that common people could only hope for. His bullying and self aggrandizing comments are straight from the lack of parenting his parents bestowed on him. No repercussions…. Allowed to trash the staff…. Put on a pedestal and not counciled on his outrageous opinions and actions. Bad seed!