The news lately out of the D.C. federal district courts and Court of Appeals has been pretty terrible for Trump and his allies. Last week, top Trump acolytes, including former chief of staff Mark Meadows and Trump’s lawyer for the Mar-a-Lago top secret/classified documents case, Evan Corcoran, were ordered by outgoing chief district court Judge Beryl Howell to testify before two different federal grand juries.
Excellent analysis. My own wonder is whether the judge threw Pence the bone of the speech and debate clause issue in order to a) limit the attractiveness of appeals. It is clear that executive privilege is going nowhere in the courts, and you can't appeal a point you asked for. and b) to keep the supremes from getting their grubby hands on this new take on speech and debate. After all, the only argument that can be made on appeal from the judge's ruling is that the clause does indeed protect you from talking about people urging clearly illegal acts.
The most interesting question for me is whether Meadows will invoke his 5th amendment right against self-incrimination and, if so, whether the Special Counsel will immunize Meadows or try to use the testimony of others to build a case against Meadows and force him to cooperate. Jay, what do you think happens re: Meadows?
Questions: Who is paying Pence's lawyers? And, how much would you estimate would be the cost of these protracted legal maneuvers on Pence's behalf, Jay?
Also, Pence has no constituency. He is heartily disliked by (thinking out loud) MAGA's, "moderate" R's, D's and Independents. Did I miss anyone?
Mike Pence does not seem to perceive his own situation clearly, or else his hopes are cheating him.
The MAGA world hates him. They were ready to kill him. Nothing that he can do or say is going to change that, but he is still behaving as though it's possible because in order to become president now that is what it would take. That's going to be "a long time waiting for a train don't come."
"First, the privilege belongs chiefly to the sitting executive. That person is no longer Donald Trump but the current president, Joe Biden." The argument being made by the MAGA world is that Trump still IS the legitimate sitting executive and therefore is immune. Of course we all know that it isn't true, but they don't. Just who are they blaming for that I wonder....hmmm?
I hope that indictments follow all this because lack of consequences for trump and minions after all this will only serve to embolden them and future dictator-wanna-be’s.
The plot thickens and the noose tightens, let's see who escapes and who talks ... Thanks for the insights Jay - you do a great job of explaining the workings of the law.
This was eye opening, and clearly explained, but as a commoner, my question is this: Can each of these persons merely claim the 5th and not say anything? If so, what then?
Any chance former VP Dan Quayle may be called to testify regarding his conversations with Pence about Pence's ability to overturn the 2020 election? Apparently, Quayle told Pence he had no legal basis to overturn but there might have been more to that conversation that is pertinent to how tRump was pressuring Pence. Would that just be hearsay? Or attorney-client privilege?
Since the only time that Pence will ever be president has already happened ( ceremonial on Jan6 ) he should count himself lucky and cooperate with the courts ! That being said I believe that is his only recourse . For him to claim executive privileges now after writing a book for monetary gains just shows his hypocrisy. As far as I'm concerned he knew or should have known dumpster 's plan and should have gone to the DOJ with his suspicions (he contacted previous lawyers and/or judge for info ) so he knew there was something going on ! He is already proving that he is already a spinless weak assed man and can't use "I'm a Christian man " to help save dumpster ! If he wanted to be known as a God fearing man who does the right and decent thing then he should testify against dumpster and the rest of the repugnants who were involved.... that is his only way ! I don't see it happening but if he ever gave a damn about the people or the country maybe he will .
thanks. I still haven't figured out how to give you a one time donation of less than 65 dollars (or whatever that limit is. And I would like to. Please make it easier for those of us that can't afford to pay monthly to help out!
Can’t he just take the 5th if his appeals don’t work? You know Meadows will because he would definitely incriminate himself. Pence is sanctimonious. He’ll cover himself in constitutional rights.
As much as Pence wants to get the MAGA vote, which he will never do anyway, more than anything he doesn't want to go to prison himself. So far, it appears that he has avoided personal involvement in the whole sordid mess. However, I doubt the MAGAs are going to accept him no matter what he does. After all, he is the one they built the gallows for. He is the one they were roaming the halls of the Capitol building looking for.
Excellent analysis. My own wonder is whether the judge threw Pence the bone of the speech and debate clause issue in order to a) limit the attractiveness of appeals. It is clear that executive privilege is going nowhere in the courts, and you can't appeal a point you asked for. and b) to keep the supremes from getting their grubby hands on this new take on speech and debate. After all, the only argument that can be made on appeal from the judge's ruling is that the clause does indeed protect you from talking about people urging clearly illegal acts.
The most interesting question for me is whether Meadows will invoke his 5th amendment right against self-incrimination and, if so, whether the Special Counsel will immunize Meadows or try to use the testimony of others to build a case against Meadows and force him to cooperate. Jay, what do you think happens re: Meadows?
Questions: Who is paying Pence's lawyers? And, how much would you estimate would be the cost of these protracted legal maneuvers on Pence's behalf, Jay?
Also, Pence has no constituency. He is heartily disliked by (thinking out loud) MAGA's, "moderate" R's, D's and Independents. Did I miss anyone?
Mike Pence does not seem to perceive his own situation clearly, or else his hopes are cheating him.
The MAGA world hates him. They were ready to kill him. Nothing that he can do or say is going to change that, but he is still behaving as though it's possible because in order to become president now that is what it would take. That's going to be "a long time waiting for a train don't come."
"First, the privilege belongs chiefly to the sitting executive. That person is no longer Donald Trump but the current president, Joe Biden." The argument being made by the MAGA world is that Trump still IS the legitimate sitting executive and therefore is immune. Of course we all know that it isn't true, but they don't. Just who are they blaming for that I wonder....hmmm?
And yet, Trump is (depressingly, maddeningly) still Lord and Savior in SW Ohio.
I hope that indictments follow all this because lack of consequences for trump and minions after all this will only serve to embolden them and future dictator-wanna-be’s.
The plot thickens and the noose tightens, let's see who escapes and who talks ... Thanks for the insights Jay - you do a great job of explaining the workings of the law.
This was eye opening, and clearly explained, but as a commoner, my question is this: Can each of these persons merely claim the 5th and not say anything? If so, what then?
Any chance former VP Dan Quayle may be called to testify regarding his conversations with Pence about Pence's ability to overturn the 2020 election? Apparently, Quayle told Pence he had no legal basis to overturn but there might have been more to that conversation that is pertinent to how tRump was pressuring Pence. Would that just be hearsay? Or attorney-client privilege?
Since the only time that Pence will ever be president has already happened ( ceremonial on Jan6 ) he should count himself lucky and cooperate with the courts ! That being said I believe that is his only recourse . For him to claim executive privileges now after writing a book for monetary gains just shows his hypocrisy. As far as I'm concerned he knew or should have known dumpster 's plan and should have gone to the DOJ with his suspicions (he contacted previous lawyers and/or judge for info ) so he knew there was something going on ! He is already proving that he is already a spinless weak assed man and can't use "I'm a Christian man " to help save dumpster ! If he wanted to be known as a God fearing man who does the right and decent thing then he should testify against dumpster and the rest of the repugnants who were involved.... that is his only way ! I don't see it happening but if he ever gave a damn about the people or the country maybe he will .
thanks. I still haven't figured out how to give you a one time donation of less than 65 dollars (or whatever that limit is. And I would like to. Please make it easier for those of us that can't afford to pay monthly to help out!
Can’t he just take the 5th if his appeals don’t work? You know Meadows will because he would definitely incriminate himself. Pence is sanctimonious. He’ll cover himself in constitutional rights.
As much as Pence wants to get the MAGA vote, which he will never do anyway, more than anything he doesn't want to go to prison himself. So far, it appears that he has avoided personal involvement in the whole sordid mess. However, I doubt the MAGAs are going to accept him no matter what he does. After all, he is the one they built the gallows for. He is the one they were roaming the halls of the Capitol building looking for.
Thank you!
Thank you, this is so well put. I have a much better understanding now, you answered about 12 questions for me.
Thank you.